Charging system (generator) wire size.

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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GAHorn
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by GAHorn »

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:Mark,

Look at the part number for on the generator tag then reference here for it's capacity. I'd also look for the stamped part number on the voltage regulator to make sure you have the correct one (or at least one in the correct range for the generator). The wire you describe sounds about right for the stock installation.

The Turn and Bank is usually tied to a self resetting Klixon breaker along with the stall warning as I recall. This is a funny round cylinder mounted just above and center of the fuses behind the piano keys on '52 and earlier aircraft. Don't know if it is in the same spot on later aircraft.
A partial listing of 12 volt rated (14 actually) Delco-Remy generators and their amperage:

12A - 1101876 (regulator should be Delco-Remy 1118383. Sometimes an Electro-Delta or interchanged VR300-14-20 is incorrectly substituted and may overheat the gen armature.)
20A - 1101890 (regulator is 1118736 or VR300-14-20)
25A - 1101879(regulator is 1118384 or VR-300-14-25)
35A - 1101898(regulator is 1118704 or VR-300-14-35) Sometimes a 1119145 regulator has been found installed, but that PN is intended for a multi-engined aircraft and incorporates a paralleling circuit which is unnecessary and sometimes troubling in S.E. aircraft because the paralleling circuit sometimes interferes with regulator polarity.

The original Cessna 170 did not require a Turn and Bank indicator, which was optional equipment.
Here's the location (Item 2) of the CB (in early aircraft) to which Bruce refers:
See Item 2 (PN CA-2) Self resetting CB for Stall Warn
See Item 2 (PN CA-2) Self resetting CB for Stall Warn
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
CAVU Mark
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by CAVU Mark »

Thank you gentleman for your replies and critically important info.

I checked today and revealed the following: Gen: 1101898 35A, Reg: 1118736 20A, fuse holder contains a 30A fuse, wiring sure looks stock or really old. From the info above it appears that I have a generator that can output more power then the regulator can regulate and the fuse pass without blowing. But, the plane does have 150 hours on it over the last 2 years with that arrangement. Doesn't make it right, just operable.

I purchased a 30A circuit breaker to install in place of the fuse, and the current wire to the fuse does not appear to be a #10. I am going to venture to say all should be sized to accommodate the 35A generator, at least install a 35A regulator, which in turn would require larger wire and circuit breaker. If more current is drawn than 20A the regulator should go into over current mode and stop charging, correct me if I am wrong.

Ah, the joys of older aircraft. Suggestions and comments please.

Thanks.
Mark
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Mark,

While not technically correct you are OK sort of. I'd replace the 30 amp fuse with a 20 amp. The 20 amp regulator will not allow the generator to achieve it's full potential and won't allow more than 20 amps. That is why for the mean time I'd just reduce the fuse to 20 amps which will better protect the wire.

You should do one of the following to be correct. Replace the regulator with the correct one for your generator, replace the fuse and I'd feel better with #10 wire thought as we have pointed out it appears Cessna did not use #10 even in later 35 amp systems. Or you could get a 20 amp generator and leave all else alone.

I'm moving slowly to a #10 wire upgrade which will carry the 35 amp potential of my generator once I match it with the correct voltage regulator and fuse. I just tripped over a log entry of sorts for my aircraft the other day that indicates it was setup similar to yours by an A&P/IA 23 years ago and there hasn't been a lick of trouble in that time.
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GAHorn
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by GAHorn »

CAVU Mark wrote:Thank you gentleman for your replies and critically important info.

I checked today and revealed the following: Gen: 1101898 35A, Reg: 1118736 20A, fuse holder contains a 30A fuse, wiring sure looks stock or really old. From the info above it appears that I have a generator that can output more power then the regulator can regulate and the fuse pass without blowing. But, the plane does have 150 hours on it over the last 2 years with that arrangement. Doesn't make it right, just operable.

I purchased a 30A circuit breaker to install in place of the fuse, and the current wire to the fuse does not appear to be a #10. I am going to venture to say all should be sized to accommodate the 35A generator, at least install a 35A regulator, which in turn would require larger wire and circuit breaker. If more current is drawn than 20A the regulator should go into over current mode and stop charging, correct me if I am wrong.

Ah, the joys of older aircraft. Suggestions and comments please.

Thanks.
If I were to venture a guess...it'd be that someone replaced a 20A gen with a 35A gen in the mistaken belief they were increasing generated capacity....and they similarly increased the circuit protection to accomodate that ...without realizing that leaving the 20A regulator in place restricts the new 35A gen to producing only 20A. If it were mine, I'd replace that regulator with a 35A unit (and change out the wire ga., of course.) but it might help to keep in mind that even with a 35A system ...that the majority of the time it will be generating far less than full capacity. My own 35 A system,...within a few minutes after engine-start...is producing only the amount of current that I am using at the time...about 15 A or so. Until I fly at night and switch on all my stuff (including dual pairs of land/taxi lamps) my gen does not work anywhere near capacity....so 8 ga wire is not actually necessary except for very short periods. ...and explains why 10 ga can serve without burning up in so many airplanes. (It's sort of like needing 3/8" fuel lines ...ONLY during takoff/climb. Not used but for short periods...but BOY OH BOY...how important those short periods can be.) :wink:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
CAVU Mark
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by CAVU Mark »

The new breakers are in and working fine. I did keep the 30A breaker for the gen and will decide what to do when my partners return - new reg or 20A breaker. One thing different I did notice is the ammeter seems a little twitchy. The meter indicates a charge but jumps frequently between 3-9 amps... or there abouts. I don't recall this previously and nothing I did should cause this to happen. I did pull the cover to the regulator, inspected, and then replaced it. Odd... when full loads are on with adequate RPM I do see the system charging. Any thoughts? I still need to take her around the patch. Thanks.
Mark
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Mark, make sure the regulator is grounded. If you have an aircraft regulator (as you should) the ground is accomplished by tabs of metal sandwiched between two of the mounting bolts and the firewall. Remove the regulator enough to clean these tabs and the fire wall. I'd also add a ground wire from the regulator to the generator case or the motor to insure good grounding between the generator and firewall.
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GAHorn
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by GAHorn »

CAVU Mark wrote:The new breakers are in and working fine. I did keep the 30A breaker for the gen and will decide what to do when my partners return - new reg or 20A breaker. One thing different I did notice is the ammeter seems a little twitchy. The meter indicates a charge but jumps frequently between 3-9 amps... or there abouts. I don't recall this previously and nothing I did should cause this to happen. I did pull the cover to the regulator, inspected, and then replaced it. Odd... when full loads are on with adequate RPM I do see the system charging. Any thoughts? I still need to take her around the patch. Thanks.
It could be any one of several things:
1. Your regulator is mal-adjusted and does not detect low battery charge until a certain threshold is met. (unlikely)
2. You have a strobe system that is firing intermittently. (more likely)
3. You have a heated pitot or other device that is switching on/off (most likely)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
CAVU Mark
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 5:42 am

Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by CAVU Mark »

Well I checked all the wiring to the new circuit breakers and had our resident EAA electrical guru take a look at it. He agrees the "twitchiness" looks odd but is not a show stopper. The twitch is very irregular, i.e. stobe is off, no pitot heater to turn on and the ammeter will literally jump around for a second then stabilize. There is just something irregular going on and, after reading another thread I will look at grounds. Did fly for 1.6 hours with it and all seems OK, 2-3 amp constant charge. I don't have a voltmeter in the panel but will use my digital for a run-up on the ground. My greater fear is the shabby wiring for all the extras added: cold solder joints, probable incorrect wire size and poor wire routing.
Mark
Wes K
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by Wes K »

The odd twitching can often be just loose connections or generator brush issues. Pop the brush cover and check brush length and condition, commutator condition, any insulated wires for shorting and the tension of the brush springs.
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Mark,

First a confession. My 170 amp meter does the exact same thing. I've not stopped flying it and besides thinking about it and wiggling the obvious possible loss connections and a cursory inspections of the grounds, I've not done any more. I've been under the panel a bit this past year and have a good idea of the condition of things and plan a small wire upgrade in the spring which is when we'll probably spend time tracking down the dancing amp meter.

All suggestions George, Wes and I have given are places to look. In addition to that the master switch could be at fault or even the master relay. If the contacts in either are dirty and slightly intermittent you could see the dancing amp meter.
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by GAHorn »

A simple trick to apply (to remove the regulator itself from the fault-problem) would be to connect a jumper wire to the generator FIELD terminal of the regulator...directly to GrouND, thereby bypassing the regulator. Do this with a significant electrical load on-line, such as turning ON your navigation and taxi lights (to prevent overcharging your battery, because in this condition your generator is putting out it's maximum effort continuously. Warning: If your generator ARMature wire size (the subject of this thread) is insufficient, then it could become pretty warm after a few minutes. If it blows your gen fues/CB then do not continue this test procedure.) Do not run in this "full ON" condition for more than a few mins.
If grounding the gen FieLD circuit causes the twitching to disappear the "fault" is likely within the regulator.
Don't panic yet...I italicized the word "fault" because ...original-style vibrating points regulators, when working perfectly, should not cause "twitching" Amp indications. But an otherwise serviceable regulator which as slightly sticking contacts or slightly mis-adjusted VR springs might occasionally be "late" in recognizing voltage requirements and may momentarily induce an over-current situation, ...which it then recognizes, and removes the excess current by interruption.
While this might be noticeable...it would not ordinarily be considered a "fault"....but only a characteristic of the type regulator when slightly worn or out of adjustment. It would not require any action whatsoever unless it drove you nuts because you fixated on it. :wink: (The "fix" would be to replace the regulator.)

If, by grounding the gen field circuit, the twitching continues...then the fault is more serious and may need further investigation. Generator brushes or commutator should be inspected each 100 hours and replaced when they are reduced in prescribed length, i.e. about 1/2". Brush tension should be 25-ounces. Use a cheap postal spring-scale. (Commutator condition/repairs are beyond the scope of repair in the field, But it won't hurt to see if the mica between the commutator bars are still undercut, as they should not protrude above the bars nor should they be even with those bars. The spaces between bars may become filled with brush-carbon and can be cleaned out with a sharpened end of a hacksaw blade...but again, that's not for the average guy...it's a repair station's job !)

What DOES stand out in my mind is the possibility of generator BEARING wear. Once a generator's bearings wear beyond limits they allow the armature to "bounce" or "wobble" and that can cause the brushes to completely un-seat momentarily. Installations such as ours, where the generator is driven directly by accy-gears, are particularly worrisome with regard to bearing wear because of the vibrations that can be passed back to the engine accy-section. (This is the major reason a rubber-shock-bushing is incorporated in this installation...to prevent generator failure from causing engine gear-train failure. If your gen rubber drive-hub ever fails...it's a good idea to have the generator rebuilt/re-certified prior to returning it back to service.) It is virtually impossible to assess generator bearing condition without removing the generator...at which point one might as well replace the bearings anyway since the work to do so would then be so easy.
But you CAN at least look at the bearing-ends with a dental mirror to see if any obvious faults lie there. Look for metal-bits at the bearing-ends and discolored bearing-ways, or blistered paint indicating excess heat. If the armature can be moved radially by hand such that any movement is visible...then the bearings are definitely shot...and you should consider yourself lucky to have discovered it before they completely let-loose!
Most authorities recommend generator bench-inspections at 500 hours, but that is largely ignored by most operators. All generators should be removed at 1,000 hours and rebuilt, regardless, in my opinion, because they typically fail shortly thereafter from lack of mx.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
CAVU Mark
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Re: Charging system (generator) wire size.

Post by CAVU Mark »

There is always more to the story....
May 19, 2010: removed generator, replaced brushes, bearings, seal. Installed on engine check out at max output all ok. This was about 50 hours ago. Last Thursday I did some digital meter readings: full load low rpm was around 12.2, average reading was around 13.8 YES! but the digital meter did show higher readings up to 15.4. The meter has the ability to record MIN and MAX voltages, the voltage must be present on the input for at least 100mS. The typical reading was lower, 13.8 and there about. My next step is to wire in an analog meter and see if there is a relation between the ammeter twitch and the voltage. Electrical problems are the worst.

I am concerned about the full output test considering the older wiring in the plane. If the 35A gen does put out 35A the 30A breaker will go quick. Discussion around the hangar with the electrical types reveals concern by some and no concern by others. The high voltage is a concern and will need to be monitored closely.
Mark
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