C170B w/180hpCS POH

[femoskol]

I'm looking for a quality Pilot Operating Handbook for a 170B with the Lycoming 180 conversion and constant speed prop
Fred Moskol femoskol@wisc.edu
608.233.9560

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Fred,

By a POH you are probably looking for a manual that would describe how to start the airplane, what procedures to use and so forth for flying it. I will tell you there isn't any specifically for an aircraft with a Avcon180 conversion as none was never written. Now as far as the AFM, it is also the same as original with a few more limitations from Avcon in their supplement for it.

Basically Avcon never claimed their conversion did anything more or different than the original aircraft and there was no need for a POH and no changes to the AFM as far as flight characteristics.

As far as operation a Avocn conversion you use the standard AFM with the Avcon supplement. The engine manufactures operating manual for those procedures and perhaps the propellor manufacturers operating manual if there is one.

[femoskol]

Bruce, Thanks for that information regarding the conversion. In addition to the operation, I'm very interested in the performance charts and weight and balance envelope. I'm sorry to say that the pre-buy didn't point out that one was lacking, and we were committed to the buy. I'm very with the plane so far, but need the data to be "comfortable." Using the original data supplied by Cessna is certainly a conservative approach. I thought there might be more information specific to O-360 with CS prop. Where can I get the AFM with the supplement
-fred
femoskol@wisc.edu

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Where can I get the AFM with the supplement

Why you can get that right here. Isn't that why you joined the association.

Let me give you a bit more information. A Cessna 170 came with a Owners Manual. This is NOT and approved document and so it is not a Pilots Operating Handbook (POH) newer aircraft have. It is about 68 pages and cover, measures 5 3/8th x 7 3/4" and looks like a manual. Among other things this is where you will find how to operate a stock 170, stock performance charts and weight and balance envelope. These are probably still available from Cessna in reprint form. The one I have for a B model is copyrighted by Cessna in 1998 and has a number P213-13-RPC-300-9/98 which might be the part number. Copies of the original B model owners manual are available to members in PDF form.

You should already have the Airplane Flight Manual (AFM). Without it your aircraft is unairworthy. It is a two sided piece of paper with Airplane Flight Manual printed on it. It is not what we think of when we think of a manual. It is the only approved information regarding flight operations of the 170. You can get a copy of a B model AFM in PDF form from this site if you don't have one, printed it and carry it in your airplane and be legal.

The Avcon AFM supplement (we are assuming you have an Avcon conversion) was part of their STC paperwork. You should also (hopefully) have this in your aircrafts maintenance records and that portion containing the AFM supplement legally should be carried with your other AFM (and any other supplements to the AFM). You can get a copy of the Avcon AFM supplement right here in PDF form.

As for specific performance charts. As I said they were never required by the FAA or written by Avcon. Using stock performance charts is a VERY conservative approach but the legal answer. If you tell us what engine/prop you have maybe members with the same combination can give you their anecdotal experiences.

The weight and balance envelope is not changed from stock by the engine change. You should use your current weight and balance info from maintenance records to calculate your loading. For convenience figuring w&B I've created an Excel work sheet that you can download from this site.

Now that I've told you you can get all you need right here by down load I will tell you it is all spread out on this forum. Please bear with me while I collect it all and I will check back in this later this evening (it's 4:35 in the afternoon now) with links to everything you need.

[femoskol]

Thank you for the very complete answer. As you suspected, I didn't realize in 1952 a POH was not required. The plane did come with rudimentary information, which is what I think qualifies as the Airplane Flight Manual, though I'm not sure it is labeled that way. I'll look. Thanks for all your help. It's exactly one of the reasons I'm a member. I look forward to the materials you are gathering as well.

BTW, I'm a part owner in a 1988 A-36 Bonanza. I've grown accustomed to that level of detail in the POH, so I'm suffering a bit of culture shock. Nonetheless, I just love flying this plane, N8299A.

Thanks again, -fred

[GAHorn]

Fred, what Bruce is trying to help you understand is:
No "POH" exists for any 170. A POH is an approved document and was not required of airplane mfr's in the years this airplane was produced. An unapproved brochure which contains similar information is the Owner's Manual, and you can obtain a copy from Cessna, ....or reproduction-copy from Univair, or Aircraft Spruce (or scanned PDF copies here.)

HOwever...an Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) WAS/IS required and is the one-page/two-sided document which MUST be aboard the aircraft when it is flown. (I don't know what "rudimentary information" you are discussing that you presume to "qualify" as an AFM......but be careful.... the AFM is a CAA (FAA) approved document which stipulates limitations but carries little/nothing in the way of operational tips/techniques. If you have one it wil have the signature of the CAA inspector and be dated. To get operational and care tips from Cessna, you'll need the Owner's Manual.
YOUR airplanes engine conversion significantly changes the validity of that information contained in the AFM. Avcon simply did not document their performance improvements in order to keep their conversion simple. Your converted airplane will exceed the stock airplane's performance. (It will also burn more fuel per hour and have different range.) It was left to the owners of such conversions to determine such statistics. You must carry the original AFM ...AND... the Avcon supplement on board your airplane when you fly.

The "culture shock" of differences between a 1988 Bonanza and a 1950's Cessna is not just manufacturer differences. They are differences which have developed over that 30-year period in which the CAA evolved into the FAA and a huge amount of regulatory changes occured that concurrently changed the manner in which pilots/owners were informed and operated their equipment. The Beech airplanes of the 1950's were just as lacking in documentation.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Fred,

Here are the links to the AFMs, AFM Supplements and Owners Manuals which I've just placed in brand new to the forum places for members only.

AFMs and AFM Supplements

Owners Manuals

No the 170 and most aircraft of the era have no where near the documentation that was required by later FARs.

[femoskol]

Thanks to both you and gahorn. What you both have provided is certainly worth the price of admission. I'm sure we'll have more questions and observations. There's no doubt about the differences in performance between the originals and the modified one we bought in Kalispell. Made it home from Great Falls to Madison in a comfortable 8 hours at 9000=11000 ft with a "little" help from 35 k tail wind. Now we'll learn how to fly it.

[Blue4]

I don't think this was said above ... the Avcon supplement to the flight manual states something to the effect of "all the numbers in the Cessna book will be as good or better with the Avcon 180hp conversion." That's obviously an understatement, as the 180 horse Avcon gives >20% additional horsepower than the stock O-300.

For comparison, basic numbers I got on wheels were >110 KTAS @ 2350 squared, And about 400' landings / 450' takeoff (no obstacle) at gross weight. The cruise was definitely not max performing, the takeoffs and landings definitely were (yet still a little conservative).

Enjoy the airplane and Madison! Happy skies and tailwinds,
-Scott

PS I always flightplan at 100 knots and 10 gal/hr to make math easy; it always allows for a comfortable margin. At the cruise numbers above, my best estimate is about 8.8 gph.

[femoskol]

Thanks for the suggestion, Scott. We used the 10gph as our consumption with 110k TAS. The winds were so terrific, it wasn't a problem. Ran it at 2400 at 9000.-fred

[ptporebski]

Hello guys,

I read this thread with interest. As an owner of a C-172, do the comments about the POH not being required apply to my 172 also? Since my plane is a contemporary of the 170 (and shares the same type certificate I am told) I would expect so. I got a pdf of the owners manual and have been carrying that thinking that I would be legal. Is that incorrect? Do I need to add something else to cross the t's and dot the i's?

Pete P.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Pete, your 172 is not on the same type certificate as the 170.

What year is your 172?

I don't know when the approved POH came into being. Sure someone else will chime in here. But basically if there isn't a page with a CAA/FAA signature in it, it's probably not an approved POH.

[canav8]

March 1, 1979. I believe it is FAR part 21.5. Doug

[GAHorn]

Hello guys,

I read this thread with interest. As an owner of a C-172, do the comments about the POH not being required apply to my 172 also? Since my plane is a contemporary of the 170 (and shares the same type certificate I am told) I would expect so. I got a pdf of the owners manual and have been carrying that thinking that I would be legal. Is that incorrect? Do I need to add something else to cross the t's and dot the i's?

Pete P.

Pete... you've just asked a question similar to "What tires are fit on my car?"... without telling us anything other than you have a Chevy!
WHICH model 172 do you have? 172...or 172A,...or 172P...or...???? Do you know the serial number?

All Cessna 172 models from 172 thru 172Q , have the following comment in their Type Certificate Data Sheel (TCDS 3A12, Rev 81 is current) :

3A12 Rev 81 TCDS172.pdf

Here's the quoted text:
"The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness requirements (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. This equipment must include a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 17271035 and on."

But don't let that mislead you...
...The certification basis of the 170 AND the 172 (early models) was CAR 3, of which Para. 3.777 requires:

"3.777 Airplane Flight Manual. An Airplane Flight Manual shall be furnished with each airplane. The portions of this document listed below shall be verified and approved by the Administrator, and shall be segregated, identified, and clearly distinguished from portions not so approved. Additional items of information having a direct and important bearing on safe operation may be required by the Administrator when unusual design, operating, or handling characteristics so warrant."

[ptporebski]

George & Bruce,

Been out of town for a while and just getting back. Thank you for the replies. I should have emphasized that I have a 1959 model C-172. That way there would not have been any confusion that it is a model 172 and not an A,B,C... model. The serial number is 46026. I read both of your emails and think that what you are saying is that the old owners manual I have printed is legal. Correct?