Spruce Aircraft shoulders harness

[falco]

With the "Anything is better than nothing" tone of the document; would it be allowed to make your own inertial reel system from automotive parts?
Given that the reel would function properly in its new inverted position (apposed to on the floor in a car) and the sewing was done by someone that knew what they were doing.
This could be a less expensive alternative if one was willing to assume responsibility for the end product. (Owner made part?)

Just a thought.

As long as no structural alterations are made the airplane...even a hemp-rope tied to the rear seat belts and routed over your shoulders and tied to your lap belt...it OK according the FAA thought process on this matter.
Would your automotive inertia reel actualy work in the airplane? Will it not involve structural alterations? Then the FAA letter authorizes it. (I hope you're installing it in something without a lot of forward inertia, however... perhaps something GREEN ?)

I dont know about the hemp rope idea -- some uppity inspector might decide it violates 91.19(a)

[GAHorn]

With the "Anything is better than nothing" tone of the document; would it be allowed to make your own inertial reel system from automotive parts?
Given that the reel would function properly in its new inverted position (apposed to on the floor in a car) and the sewing was done by someone that knew what they were doing.
This could be a less expensive alternative if one was willing to assume responsibility for the end product. (Owner made part?)

Just a thought.

As long as no structural alterations are made the airplane...even a hemp-rope tied to the rear seat belts and routed over your shoulders and tied to your lap belt...it OK according the FAA thought process on this matter.
Would your automotive inertia reel actualy work in the airplane? Will it not involve structural alterations? Then the FAA letter authorizes it. (I hope you're installing it in something without a lot of forward inertia, however... perhaps something GREEN ?)

I dont know about the hemp rope idea -- some uppity inspector might decide it violates 91.19(a)

FAR 91.19(b) authorizes any hemp that is otherwise authorized, and the ACE (FAA Opinion Letter) does that.

§ 91.19 Carriage of narcotic drugs, marihuana, and depressant or stimulant drugs or substances.
top
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft within the United States with knowledge that narcotic drugs, marihuana, and depressant or stimulant drugs or substances as defined in Federal or State statutes are carried in the aircraft.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to any carriage of narcotic drugs, marihuana, and depressant or stimulant drugs or substances authorized by or under any Federal or State statute or by any Federal or State agency. Let's get HIGH! (altitudinally speaking)

(In fact... I suppose that since it's intended as an interior part.... it MUST pass the "horizontal burn test".

[falco]

Hemp should pass the burn test, so long as you don't roll it too tight.

[bagarre]

Forget about the reels at Northern Tool. They are not inertia reel or even gravity driven. They have a ratchet like folding lawn chairs from the 60's. (roll them all the way back in to release them out more).
Although the BAS reels are AMSAFE as well...not nearly the same reel.

Still looking. I really like the idea of having reels. I'm just being cheap.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Forget about the reels at Northern Tool. They are not inertia reel or even gravity driven. They have a ratchet like folding lawn chairs from the 60's. (roll them all the way back in to release them out more).
Although the BAS reels are AMSAFE as well...not nearly the same reel.

Still looking. I really like the idea of having reels. I'm just being cheap.

Here is the only auto retrofit inertia real I could find today that can be mounted in any position. http://www.retrobeltusa.com/products/details/id/2


$91 for this unit times two. Then you have to acquire enough belt material and buckle hardware and a sewing machine to build the Y harness. Then if your current seat belts won't accept the harness hardware, which mine didn't, you will have to use loops to go around the lap belts or replace the lap belts as well. I did the loop thing and it was OK but I think the hardware at the buckle solution is better.

Of course if you already have a Y harness without retracts, they could most likely be used with this reel someway.

So after all of this MAYBE you have a system for between $300-400 and your time.** Remember I got aircraft AMSAFE retracts, belt material and hardware for FREE and I have access to an industrial sewing machine. I'm all about do it yourself when you can but, but really, how much does that BAS system cost?

** Of course MAYBE this would make an excellent article for the 170 News if it works

[bagarre]

Complete kit from BAS costs $1,100. That's everything including STC.
Being an STC, you do need to have it installed by an A&P. That will add to the price.

So, if someone was starting from scratch (and valued their time), it's going to be tough to justify not going the BAS route.
A real DIYer could probably save a few hundred bucks at the cost of several evenings of tinkering.

In my case, I already have a non-retractable shoulder harness (Hooker) that could be attached to the reel fairly easily.
So, my pay out is the cost of the reels.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

In my case, I already have a non-retractable shoulder harness (Hooker) that could be attached to the reel fairly easily.
So, my pay out is the cost of the reels.

And you have a '52 which already has the nut plate to attach the reel to in the spar. If you don't have this it is a show stopper and the BAS which gives approval to the mod needed to mount it, is much more attractive.

I have a set of Y harnesses that I think came from Hooker many years ago. I did't use them in my inertia reel system because the belts were to wide. Before proceeding you might want to check your harness belt will fit and reel you try.

But even if the belt doesn't fit inside the reel a slightly less attractive method to use what you have and what you find would be to sew Y to the reels existing belt in a fashion you Y belt never retracts into the reel. I'd considered this method but decided against it because I had all the hardware to make my harness that would fit and the color of the belting material I had didn't match the Hooker harness.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Here is one of the Hooker Harnesses I spoke of that my partner had. They have loops sewn into all three ends. The ideal I've been told was to loop the back set seat belts through the one loop. Then with the harness over your shoulders as normal, run your lap belt through the other two loops. There is not installation required.

I've tried this system briefly. The problem with it is two fold. Right now our seat belts in the back set are to short to really use with this system. (They're really to short to use normally as well.) And when the system is in place your rear set is useless for passengers. The loops around the lap belt work OK and it is the system I copied on my own belt design.

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[GAHorn]

...Still looking. I really like the idea of having reels. I'm just being cheap.

The dissatisfaction of "cheap" is going to be with you the entire lifetime of ownership, while the satisfaction of "quality" will as well.

As everyone probably recalls...I did the Davis "Y" harness sold by Spruce for less than $50/side... and I"m "satisfied"....but there's no inertia-reel. (I can reach my flap handle...but others might not like the need to slip out of the rt-side harness to initiate flap deployment...and then slip back into the harness rt-side before landing. ((There is no problem for retracting flaps...only initial deployment...so takeoff is no problem for most folks,...the biggest problem is entering pattern and needing to momentarily slide your right arm out of the shoulder-strap to initiate deployment.))

My Davis are black..and do not match my brown lap-belts....and that's the only reason I plan to save up for a better harness. (I could re-web my Y-harness...but if I did that I'd have to ship my lap-belts off so they'd either match or be re-webbed also ...and even tho' I don't fly that often... I just KNOW that's when a flight would pop-up, while my belts are not installed. So I plan to replace the entire system next year and will likely install an STC'd inertia system.

I personally have found the long-term satisfaction of doing it right ...with excellent equipment...adds immeasureably to the over-all satisfaction of ownership, not to mention pride and re-sale value.

[blueldr]

Why would an STC be required for any shoulder harness installation?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Why would an STC be required for any shoulder harness installation?

Because you might be making modifications to structure which in the case of the BAS install you are. Of course one might make a minor alteration and then install the harness but as you know we (and the FAA) can argue all day long what is and is not a major alteration (and therefor a minor alteration). The STC illuminates the arguing and any judgement being made down the road by a future mechanic who thinks your minor alteration is a major alteration.

[blueldr]

I am of the impression that almost anyone can make a mountain out of a mole hill if they really put their mind to it.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I am of the impression that almost anyone can make a mountain out of a mole hill if they really put their mind to it.

Sometimes we don't even have to but our mind to it.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Just to add info to this thread for folks thinking about adding harnesses. Specially those of us with '51 and prior aircraft without the AN-3 nut plate already installed in the rear carry through spar for the purpose of installing a shoulder harness.

Wag Aero (http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.p ... ts_id=2429) Wag sells a fixed harness for our aircraft for $169 a harness. With the harness comes their STC to drill the rear carry through and using their hardware, which is a few bushings, washers, a bolt and a plate. Unfortunately, in my eyes the installation procedure also calls for a hole in the upper skin above the spar in order to drop in the hardware and hold the nut for tightening. This hole is them filled with a rubber plug. I don't know but doubt if this procedure could be accomplished without the hole in the outer skin. I also am starting to think the holes probably aren't that big of a deal when one considers the added protection the harnesses can provide. I don't know if they would sell the STC separate for less but at $340 with the harness, the iron clad approval to drill the carry through spar for the attachment is probably worth it.

Hooker Harnesses (http://www.hookerharness.com/aviationstckits.php.) Hooker sells a fixed harness and STC for our 170 at $225 (2009 price list) pr seat. Their web site says their installation does not require the hole in the top skin and uses a reinforcing bracket. They claim 1.5 hours to install with the headliner removed. Twice that with the headliner in place. Interesting to note. Hooker lists an inertia reel on their price list for $155. This is not part of their STC's package but I wonder if it couldn't be added.

The lack of harnesses in my 170A has been on the back of my mind for some time. I'd like to have them an have been trying to engineer a way to install the two I already have. I might do or call somethings minor alterations and do them that others wouldn't agree with. But I'd never make a modification under these circumstances that could not easily be undone. While there is lots of evidence drilling holes required for a harness in the rear carry through spar is OK, after all Cessna did it, it is not easily undone, and so I just won't jump in with a drill and do it, even to install something that could prevent injury.

Just yesterday a 172 made an emergency landing in Lancaster Pa. The plane hit nose first just making a runway. The pilot might have walked away with little injury had he not slammed his head into the instrument panel. Probably wasn't wearing the installed shoulder harness.

Think I'll be calling Hooker on Monday and inquiring about their STC.

(Well didn't take me long to find Spruce sells the Hooker Harness and STC for $197.)

[jrenwick]

...Hooker Harnesses (http://www.hookerharness.com/aviationstckits.php.) Hooker sells a fixed harness and STC for our 170 at $225 (2009 price list) pr seat. Their web site says their installation does not require the hole in the top skin and uses a reinforcing bracket. They claim 1.5 hours to install with the headliner removed. Twice that with the headliner in place. Interesting to note. Hooker lists an inertia reel on their price list for $155. This is not part of their STC's package but I wonder if it couldn't be added....

I installed a Hooker harness in my 170 a few years ago, no reel. My experience confirms this, except I don't remember the headliner being such an issue. If I remember right, they add a doubler plate to the rear spar, which is held on through the nutplate in the bottom of the spar (if you have a later model with the "coat hanger" bolt). The spar is drilled horizontally for the bolt that holds the harness, and there's also a bushing added in the spar that prevents the bolt from crushing it. This is from memory, and it's been a while.