Insurance Problem

[Scott Barland]

If any of you insure your 170 through Aviation Unlimited Agency Inc (AUA), formerly of Greensboro NC, now in Birmingham AL, BE SURE that you retain proof of your payment to AUA for your policy, regardless of what company actually issues the policy. I have insured through them for about 20 years, with no major issues. Imagine my surprise to receive a Notice of Termination for Non Payment of Premium from Chartis Aerospace Co, the issuer of my policy and one of AIG's companies, when I had paid AUA in full when the invoice arrived!! Several phone calls to AUA brought assurances that it was only an administrative screwup that had already been corrected, and a notice or letter was coming out of Chartis that very day retracting the Notice. Several days later, without receiving the promised retraction, I again talked to AUA. They said things did not happen as rapidly as thought, but they had provided proof of my payment in full to Chartis, that Chartis had agreed that I was paid up, and I would have that notice of reinstatement the following day. Didn't happen. This time I was able to get in touch with Chartis directly, and was told that my account was still in arrears for the entire amount (AUA had not sent them ANY money on my behalf), that AUA had NOT provided any proof of payment to them since the termination notice was issued, and the policy would in fact be terminated if I could not personally provide indisputable proof of payment to AUA. Fortunately, I was able to retrieve the cancelled check, as well as AUA's invoice and binder, and Chartis reinstated the policy. I also was told that the same thing happpened to "a number of other AUA customers". Just a heads up.

[hilltop170]

Several C-195 owners have had the same thing happen. Looks like a systemic problem.

I have used Avemco for the last 20 years. When you call Avemco, you are talking to the underwriter, not some agent for some company that farms your policy out to some other company whose underwriter is impossible to talk to.

I'll stick with Avemco and think they are pretty competitive these days. My 170 is insured for $100,000 hull, $300 deductable in/not in motion, $1,000,000 prop damage, $100,000/person, $1,000,000 each accident, for $1550/yr. Avemco will do auto-payments to your credit card and you never have to worry about your account closing for non-payment.

One of Avemco's best features in my opinion is the ability, on a monthly basis, to change between "flying" status and "non-flying/storage" status which makes a big difference in premium. No other company I know of will do that. If you are not going to fly for some period of time during the year, the plane is still insured for damage and you don't have to pay full rate. Even if the annual quote is higher than other companies, if you do not fly the plane during the year for some reason, the total dollars spent may well be less in the end. That's the way it works for me and I always come out less than the quote. You just have to remember to call Avemco and re-activate the in-flight portion before you fly.

[Brad Brady]

AIG, The company that the 170 association recommends.( maybe that isn't correct, advertises with us) Is also a very good company. When two guys opened the hanger door at PNT. when I was working there, ( they had no business opening the door) and crushed my rudder on the 172, AIG paid for the new rudder ( a 1996, since the rudders haven't changed since 1965, except the weighting and fairings). and my time to make the repairs. My 172 is insured for 35,000 and costs me less than 600 a year. I really like AIG.

[Kurt Aichele]

We also have AUA. Had it for quite a few years now. Insurance is also Chartis. They charge extra for skis. Did not have this extra charge in the previous years, just the latest renewal. No other problems, but since they moved to Alabama, seems not as friendly as before. Our long time agent at AUA moved on after the move. Will also be looking for another insurance company for this year. I was told in the past that if you request a quote from an insurance company, you are then "Locked Out" from any other company from giving you a quote. I believe this was what an Avemco agent told me a few years ago. Was this false info so I would not look elsewhere, or could I have completely mis-understood the process?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

An Underwriter ie Chartis will only quote on an a particular aircraft once in a period of time. So if you ask broker A for a quote and get one from Chartis broker B will not be able to get you a different quote until that time period is exhausted. But you don't have to buy Chartis from broker A you can decide to buy Chartis from broker B but you will have to sign a paper making broker B your agent because Chartis will consider broker A your agent until you do so.

Avemco is the underwriter. They have no brokers. You can't buy Avemco from anyone else but Avemco.

[170C]

Avemco is like State Farm or Farmers (and some others) in that they are THE insurer where folks such as Travers (and some others) are brokers or general agents who have access to several aircraft insurance companies. If you obtain a quote from a broker and he has gone to Chartis, as an example, then another broker will not be able (or shouldn't be able) to obtain a quote for you/your specific aircraft form Chartis. Its the same as with your auto or home insurance. If your agent went to Traverlers Insurance Co for a quote on your auto or home, another agent should not be able to get a quote on YOUR auto or home from Travelers. If you like what you get back from Avemco then to with it. If you are a savy insurance buyer you will get a quote from Avemco as well as having a broker obtain a quote for you from one of his markets so you can compare premiums, deductibles, policy conditions, etc. While there are many insurance markets for homes, auto's, businesses, etc. there are a very limited number of aviation markets available so your broker can't get 10 quotes for you like your auto/home agent can do.

[DWood]

I also have AUA starting this year and I let Corey Maxwell know about the concerns posted here. He responded to me with the following and he will either post a response here or I will post his response.

Thanks, Dan. We've now gotten the situation completely resolved, and letters are being processed by Chartis this weekend. We'll have an official statement ready tomorrow. I'll be posting to the C195 group. How might I post to the 170 group?

Dan

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Dan, thanks for doing this. Please make sure AUA's response gets posted here if you can. With the internet and forums (such as ours) it is to easy for a company to get a reputation they may not deserve. And it never goes away.

[DaveF]

This anticompetitive practice is irritating. For years I bought insurance through brokers that I didn't know and had no idea whether I was getting a fair deal. I'd hear about other owners paying less, but I couldn't shop around so they had me over a barrel.

When I got the 170 I called Avemco to get the "other" quote, but liked dealing with them so much that I didn't bother getting a quote from anyone else. I'm very pleased with Avemco and won't go back to the other guys. They can have their opaque customer-unfriendly system.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

This anticompetitive practice is irritating. ....

So do you think when you go to auto insurance broker A and get a quote from underwriter 1, 2 and 3 that auto insurance broker B can get a better quote from underwriter 1. 2. and 3? They can't

Yes the broker fee may be different but the underwriters fee isn't. The difference is there are many more auto insurance underwriters and brokers don't represent them all so shopping around can get a better deal.

As Frank pointed out there are only a few aircraft underwriters. And most of the brokers use all of them. So when you shop through a broker for aircraft insurance you have to do it differently. You have to ask them what their fee is and who are all the underwriters they got quotes from. If you don't like their fee or you don't like the brokers customer service call another broker. If you find your broker can't get a quote from a particular underwriter and you want one from that underwriter you can call a broker that can get you a quote.

I've changed brokers 3 times now in 15 years of aircraft ownership. The first time was because my broker USAA struck a deal with an underwriter and that underwriter was not competitive for my aircraft (a 170). the second time it was because of a long string of clerical errors and inconsistant customer service. When I switched brokers the third time the new broker quoted a different underwriter whose quote beat my last by a few dollars but the open pilot clause required more hours. I asked for and received a quote from the exact same underwriter I'd been using an it was (no surprise) the same price as I had been paying. So same insurance same cost new broker with so far much better customer service.

[DWood]

Dan, thanks for doing this. Please make sure AUA's response gets posted here if you can. With the internet and forums (such as ours) it is to easy for a company to get a reputation they may not deserve. And it never goes away.

Bruce:
I will post AUA's reply when I receive it unless Corey posts it himself.
Thx,
Dan

[DaveF]

Bruce,
I have no idea how the insurance business works, aircraft or otherwise. I know that the car insurance business encourages me to shop around but the aircraft insurance business won't let me, and I pay twice as much for it. For 20 years my interactions with aircraft insurance brokers have been brief and unsatisfying. Brokers come and go, premiums go up and down, take it or leave it. Luckily, so far all the money I've spent on insurance has been wasted.
Dave

[W.J.Langholz]

Some of the Stearman boys are having the same issue.......hhhhhmmmmm

[n3833v]

I just got my quote for this year and it dropped $165.00 from last year. I was surprised it dropped so much, but I am glad. Agent said about 12 companies quoted, more companies this year than last.

John

[DWood]

Attached is the official response from AUA.