Fuel

[WSHIII]

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for the welcome!

I'll confess I haven't researched it thoroughly but I have been to the Petersen website and it looks like my 0360-A1A conversion on the 170B is eligible for the STC, and they are ready, willing and able to sell me one. At $2 per Hp! As long as I use 91 Octane or better of course ? What have I overlooked?

In any event, I am still able too use it in the other 3, if the 170 ultimately doesn't work out.

BTW, I'm all for doing things by the book, "legally" as you say.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

If Peterson has the 170 with a 180 Lycomng combination good and good for you. I was under the impression they didn't.

It is not that 170 airframe or the 180 Lycoming couldn't use MOGAS but many people don't realize the STCs are two part, one for the engine and one for the airframe and that the combination must be eligible.

[canav8]

Unfortunately, Cessna has put the restriction on the use of autogas in any Cessna. It is not an engine thing. I will look for it but I remember reading a Cessna Document.

[Andy Metzka]

My two cents... I've run mogas in my 120 (C85) for 1000 hours or so with no issues other than NOT having to clean the plugs that would foul every 50 hours when using 100LL. I DID break in the ECI steel cylinders ( good product!) with 100LL. The 170A (C145) seems to run fine on it as well. I know several guys burning it with no problems. Local Phillips 66 station currently sells alcohol free 91octane for $1.90 less than the local FBO gets for 100LL.

[WSHIII]

Unfortunately, Cessna has put the restriction on the use of autogas in any Cessna...............

Doug I can't find anything about this "restriction". I've googled it and the only specific reference is from you, on this forum, back in Oct of 2010. I did a search over on Cessna Plot Association and found nothing. Up until early last summer, I was over there almost daily for years on end and there was never any mention it, ever. And that place has the most active, thorough and well informed membership of any forum I've ever been involved with. And a Cessna specific group no less, with more than just a few Mogas advocates, so that new "restriction" would have been big news. Really big news, for many of us. It's also hard to believe Petersen could keep selling the STC for Cessna's if it really was illegal now.

The ball is back in your court!

[blueldr]

I have been convinced that if you're pure of heart and honor your mother and father, 10% alcohol laced fuel will never hurt you or your airplane.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Just about every aircraft and engine manufacturer has a statement somewhere that says MOGAS should not be used. Standard practice until they realized 100LL is going away. Now they (Lycoming) are magically quietly saying maybe it would be OK and are "developing" products for it.

But never the less Cessna, Lycoming or Continental can not stop the FAA from approving a STC for anything the Feds will approve and one approved the product or practice is legal to do or use until the STC is recinded or modified via AD from the FAA.

EAA and Peterson still have valid STCs and if complied with are perfectly legal to use no matter what any manufacture says.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I have been convinced that if you're pure of heart and honor your mother and father, 10% alcohol laced fuel will never hurt you or your airplane.

We know your convienced BL. And you must have honored your mother and father much better than I have because I had problems and I WANT to use MOGAS and do not advocate against it other than with ethanol.

[W.J.Langholz]

So guys

This debate goes on forever on several forums, what I would like to know is, do we have any documentation ie pictures of parts and such that deteriorate due to 10% E gas? Our astute member Mr Bluelder has lots of documentation of use with it. In Tea S.D the Vans Air Force, that's all the put in their planes. For several years S.D.S.U. ran 5 different planes on e-gas.

I've heard of all the bad things that could happen but have never really seen any documentation.......just wondering......


W.

p.s Bluelder, can't remember but was there anything in the 10 commandments about whiskey.......

[WSHIII]

Well, unless something is specifically "prohibited" by the manufacturer, then it really is only a "recommendation", a "suggestion" if you will, and should be treated as such.

Having said that, I guess we need to define what "restriction" really means and it's implication. My gut feeling is it's more likely we could substitute "recommendation" or "suggestion" for "restriction" in this case.

[Sixracer]

The real problem I see with the ethanol laced fuel is the percentage. I've checked many of the local stations and found very few with what is advertised on the pump.
One station (independent & a bulk dealer) that advertises "0" Ethanol had a 10% content at his own signature station. Yet when testing other stations he supplies I found from 5% to "0"%. He and I had a talk and concluded he is at the mercy of the refinery that supplies him. I say check what you use and be aware of what % really enters your airplane
Have there been any real studies on the "Carb ice" issues and ethanol laced fuel?
BTY: I found one cut rate station selling 35% ethanol in their fuel. Had "up to 15%" sticker on pump. Guess that is why they sell cheaper than others.

[n3833v]

I have a cousin that works in small engines and since ethanol has been introduces into gas, he loves the combination. He told me that he has more business rebuilding and replacing fuel system componets than ever before and makes very much money from this combination. I use avgas only since about 2003 due to I don't need to introduce any problems for future repairs.

John

[blueldr]

I have noticed that almost all cousins work on small engines that are screwed up by the use of alcohol laced fuel. Thats why you NEVER see any home owners out mowing their lawn with a gas powered mower, especially here in California where you just can't find any straight gasoline any more. The same thing holds true for ATVs, Motor Scooters, Light Motorcycles, Leaf blowers, etc., etc., etc.
All old automobiles like my '63 Ford Galaxy Convertible (I bought it new in '63) are going to die soon because of it. The last twenty five years or so on the stuff has been hard on the old Ford, I think. My youngest daughter drives it now and says it runs fine, but shes a woman and what the hell does she know about that kind of stuff?
Anyone qualified to work on a Briggs and Straton engine on a lawn mower is bound to be an expert on this sort of thing.

[GAHorn]

...Chevron reports their fuel is stable for two years, .....

Not doubting you..but exactly when/where did they make that claim? How is it to be stored to meet that claim. Can you provide a reference?

I have some absolutely scientifically provable evidence that mogas cannot be relied upon in airplanes.
Ask Gary Hanson (Ol'Gar) how long it took for us to get his C150 airborne after he used mogas in it. (And HE is ...or was...a mogas proponent.) I thought I'd never get all the crud out of that system.
Ask about his 170 carburetor while you're at it. And about the 150 carb we had to clean up again after annual.

Mogas is simply rotten for airplanes ...or any other engine...unless it's used fairly promptly. It has not much shelf-life once it's been delivered into a vehicle.

If it's fresh...if it's used promptly...if it's clean...then it probably will not kill you or your airplane right away.
But unless you use every bit of it up ....if you let it sit for more than a few weeks.... then you're asking for trouble, and there's no "scientific data" needed to make the point. It's no more necessary than the same anecdotal proof mogas users have.

In any case, when mogas costs $3.75 here in TX, and avgas costs only $4.50 locally.... (and Kelly Aerospace gets $350 for a carb overhaul kit and $1870 for an exchange/overhaul)..... there's damn little argument that's going to convince me to put mogas in my airplane that only operates 50 hrs/year and will sit in the hangar for weeks between flights before it carries my wife and grandkids at night.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

In any case, when mogas costs $3.75 here in TX, and avgas costs only $4.50 locally....

MOGAS with ethanol today $3.67 MOGAS without ethanol available with limited hours at one station most of the time 66 miles round trip away for $3.95. AVGAS at my airport today $6.23.

You can see why folks who don't live in Texas consider MOGAS. Heck if I lived in Texas I'd run 100LL in my lawn mower (which my buddy does even at $6.23 to keep it running without the ill effects of MOGAS with ethanol)