Loan approval complete - Now, which plane?

[edbooth]

I enjoy the red/green debate very much, unfortunately neither of these are are red or green so I am out in the cold on that one.

I do like straight to the point but I was hoping for the detailed response I received from Bruce. Thank you very much kind sir and that A model is a 49 model. Thanks to edbooth for your reply as well.

The resale value has been on my mind as well but I truly hope that this will be a plane I own for the rest of my flying days. Unless unforeseen fortune comes my way or on the other end of the scale, unforeseen poverty.

I can't explain the tough mental struggle I have on a daily basis. One hour I have a decision and then there was something I didn't consider and then I flip flop back the other way. Before I sold my 152 I really never imagined the struggle inside myself would be this exhausting. Not sure why I thought that, when I bought my last new truck (last truck was several years used) I went for days battling between to brands. When I have a 50/50 change of getting it right I usually don't. That was the case in the truck purchase, not really knowing if the other truck would have made me happy I just know the one I chose did not.

My apologizes if I am sharing way to much here. To much info I am sure. Don't get me wrong here I'm not in tears yet but I'm sure concerned about making a good decision for my family more than myself.

I just gotta get this one right. Heck maybe both are right. Flip a coin and be happy.

Sometimes I think you can have too much information. When we bought 3225A back in 1970, it was bought based on an article I read in Flying magazine. I did no research and bought the first one I saw. I had not flown a taildragger for about 10 years when we took it for a test flight. Fortunately the landing was a greaser (I remembered to keep the wheel in my gut) and that sold the plane to me. It definately was probably not the best plane I could have bought, but with a little TLC and a few bucks, it has served our family well. I have two daughters that basically grew up in the back seat, having been to a zillion fly-ins and all but two conventions since 1977. Our youngest daughter also has a 170 3234A just slightly newer. All I can say now, it was the best $4500 I ever spent. Whatever one you buy, just maintain it well and it will take care of you and provide many enjoyable hours.

[juredd1]

I was prepared for the many different opinions but I think that helps me consider all of those different view points and causes me to look at some view points that I had not considered before. I hope to be there riding on the wings of my own 170 but if not I am sure it would be very beneficial to me as I wonder through this process.

Thanks edbooth for the post. I hope to pass this joy of flying on to my children. A three year old that I have only been able to take up once and she seemed to really enjoy and my 10 month old that is way past due. My uncle that has allowed me to keep my plane on his property (He's the one with the 2000ft. strip) has taken many kids up and has several grand kids for years but it just seems that they lost interest in flying over time. I am hoping to keep things interesting for my kids by going to things like fly-ins and maybe just weekend camping trips. I still my not succeed but I'm going to give it a shot.

I am having an off my own subject thought.

For you folks that have upgraded your O-300 for the IO-360 (I think I got that right) were you able to get anything out of your O-300 engine? Did you just hang on to it or were you able to sell it to put that money back in on your upgrade? I don't know much about this but I am guessing the proper gets replace in this process as well so did you sell it as well?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Justin,

Ed is right. Sometimes to much info gets in the way and your never able to pull the trigger. I'm so smart now I doubt if I'd ever by an airplane. And as smart about 170s as I might appear to be you might think the 170s I've owned would be the best, but you would be wrong. I have no regrets with those I bought though and It's all worked out. I wouldn't change a thing.

At some point your just going to have to say enough is enough and buy one.

[juredd1]

Bruce,

I understand that. I think that I am almost there. Not sure I have mentioned but have an uncle that soloed in a champ back in early 70's I think that has taken every trip with me. He has said more than once I wish I could make the decision for you but I can't, just flip a coin and buy one. Of course he would through out all the 170's and buy the restored Stinson that we looked, so he is not helping me out much. He is not a 170 guy meaning no much time in one but just don't think once I learn to really fly the plane that I won't be able to tell much difference in the two performance wise.

Blueldr made the comment in his opinion there is a world of difference between the two. The kind of info I am looking for is what someone see's as real world differences besides the obvious that has already been mentioned. Maybe there is some post on this forum that will give me some good view of what I can't put on a A that I can put on a B. Then I'll decide if I can't have an an A model what I think I might want. Bruce, You said putting your harness on your plane was not a big deal is that because you did the work and you knew what you were doing or was it because your A had something others don't. A harness is something that I think I must have. So if I am going to spend $1000 more to get that issue resolved I need to consider that. If no one can discuss that openly here please PM me.

I have heard mentioned that the A model has unbalanced controls. Can anyone give me details on how that might sway my decision.

Thanks again for helping me out here. I hope I am not wearing out my membership and welcome here in these few short weeks.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

The harness needs a mounting point. There are two basic systems readily available. A fixed harness or an inertia real harness. The inertia real system is preferred by most. The STC'd kit (was BAS, they just changed the name) requires their mount to be installed. It is the same amount of work as installing the mounting points for a fixed harness if you buy the A. There are three basic methods of adding the fixed mounting point. 1- duplicate the B model which would take some very creative methods without major dissassembly. 2- Use the Hooker Harness STC'd kit which is what I used. 3- Use Wag Aeros kit which is different in method than Hooker.

I installed the Hooker myself under the supervision of my IA. Lots of the required work is removing the headliner which you can do. Took me less than 2 hours as I recall, being very careful and thinking twice before I drilled or riveted. This was after the headliner was removed.

If you buy the B the fixed mount is there. You just have to cut a hole in the headliner. Fixed harness for a B are about $60 a seat for just the shoulder harness. Most likely you will replace the seat belt part while your at it and the price could just to the $160 a seat range. The Hooker STC kit cost $199 including the seat belts and harness. Wags is a bit cheaper.

The BAS inertia real kit is between $1200 and $1300 for both seats depending on color of the belts and type of headliner.

You could also design your own inertia real system as a few of are or have but I'm here to tell you you won't save much, you will spend a lot of time, and the results are only as good as your engineering. But the BAS system if you want inertia real.

So the quick and dirty comparison between the A and B model is this. In a B model for a little over $120 you can add a shoulder harness to both seats that you are likely not to like. To do the same to a A model with cost $400 and what ever the intall cost works out to and your likely not to like them any more than had you bought the B model except the B did cost as much to get something you don't like. BUT in either case might save your life. No matter what model you buy the BAS inertia real system with cost the same to buy and install.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Balanced verses unbalanced elevator. (A verses B).

The balanced elevator is nicer. If you never flew the unbalanced A model or Rag Wing, you would never know that what you have is nicer. If you never flew the B with the balanced elevator, you would never know or even think that you want the balanced elevator.

Here is the difference.

Unbalanced. In taxi you will have to use more force to pull full up elevator. In flight the force to move the elevator from it's trimmed position is greater. Therefore you will be more attentive to trim. On landing, which requires more trimming, you will be more attentive.

Balanced> In taxi it requires very little effort to hold full aft elevator because the weight of the elevator is, balanced. In flight you will likely want to trim but because elevator force is less in an untrimmed state, it is easier to just hold pressure for minor and short periods. On landing you will still want to trim but again less effort is needed when not precisely trimmed and there for it is not as critical and you may trim less.

If you plan to spend a lot of time in an untrim condition buy the B. I've owned both and it makes no difference to me.

[juredd1]

Bruce,

Thank you for the info provided on both the Harness and the controls. I rarely trimmed on my 152, maybe it was because I didn't feel the need because I suspect it being an 80 model it probably had a balanced elevator. I don't recall my instructor putting much emphasis on trimming the plane but I notice my uncle trimming his Aeronca Champ on every flight after take off and just before landing.

More things to consider I guess.

I know I can make the extra payment for the B just not sure I want to, doesn't seem like much when ya spread it over 15 years but it does when you compare the total loan amount after the 15. It's going to be a long weekend of fighting with myself, have a good one folks.

[bat443]

Hi Justin, I wasn't going to say anything as it is a personal choice, and every owner is looking for something, if only slightly, different. But I decided I would add my 2 cents worth. So now for my input. I have had 3 170's, 2 were 1955 B's, the first I bought in 1978 when I had 13 hours total time and sold a couple of years latter when I had 400 hours to go to A&P school, the second I bought 4 years ago to have something to fly after I sold a 185. It was sold when I bought a 180 project which I still haven't finished. After a year of renting a 172 from a friend of mine, last Oct. I bought a 1949 A to have something I owned to fly. Based on this experience I noticed a couple of things. The heater in the A keeps my left foot warn/very hot, in the late model B the front seats were always comfortable all the way down to 0*F, never rode in the back, so can't say about rear seat heat. Plus the late B has a windshield defogger/defroster. And I noticed the difference in the feel of the A elevator, not the nice light elevator feel of the B. As for shoulder harnesses, I installed BAS in my second B, easy but expensive, would be my first choice though. In my A, I installed Alpha Aviation 3 point shoulder harnesses to save about $400 and for the easy of installation as they attach to a very easy to install nut plate in the cabin door opening aft bulkhead (65.33 bulkhead). You do have to open the edge of the headliner from the retainer about 6 inched each side of the bulkhead. A factor effecting this choice for me was that the head liner zipper runs fore and aft in the A, to install the BAS harness attach nut plates I would have had to remove the head liner. To install the BAS harness in the B, I was able to just unzip the head liner zipper which runs side to side under the aft spar carry through (65.33 bulkhead). The only other thing that I noticed was that the control cables for the A run vertically aft of the baggage compartment, and on the B run vertically on the aft side of the 65.33 bulkhead. This would prevent an extended baggage on the A. Other than that, they have all been great fun, but for me, and remember this is my personal choice, if I was looking for a 170 to keep, I would sell my A and buy a later model B. I make this choice based on creature comforts of the later B, not a difference performance, as they both will get the job done. A friend of mine has flown his stock, 1949 A all over the Idaho backcountry for years, you don't need a highly modified airplane to have fun. I know this is going to stir up trouble, as there are very strong opinions on this point, but I buy airplanes based on their condition, not on the quality and quantity of their log books, of course I would pay slightly more for one with complete, accurate logs as these aircraft are perceived to have higher value, and people will pay for that perception. Good luck, and have fun.

Tim

[mekstrand]

I've got a 1950 A Model. I installed the Cessna factory shoulder harness (service kit SK170-12C1). It was less than $200 shipped and only took a couple hours to install and doesn't require the headliner to be removed. It is a fixed harness but I'm quite happy with it.

If you plan to modify the airframe the B model may be more suitable as things like extended baggage and the Sportsman STOL are not available for the A model. As I said before I own an A model and it's been a great VFR airplane for me and my family. Its not a Super Cub, or a 180, but its a great little plane that very inexpensive to operate. I typically encourage others to consider looking for a 53-56 B model as parts are more plentiful and the airframe benefits from all the production enhancments. Saying that, I don't think you'll be disappointed with any of the 170's.

[W.J.Langholz]

, but I buy airplanes based on their condition, not on the quality and quantity of their log books, of course I would pay slightly more for one with complete, accurate logs as these aircraft are perceived to have higher value, and people will pay for that perception. Good luck, and have fun.

Tim

X's 2


W.

[juredd1]

Tim,

Thank you for putting your 2 cents in on this. It was important to get all the information you were willing to provide me on this subject.

mekstrand,

Thanks for you reply, I had read some stuff related to the Sportsman STOl not be available for the A model but had not been able to confirm it. Thank you for that and the rest or your input.

W.J.,

Thank you for showing up and expressing a second or I think that's what it was.

Justin

[marathonrunner]

Not even an opinion. Shoulder harness accidents are far more damaging to the body than inertia reel that support the whole body. do not even consider a shoulder harness. Go with a good inertia reel harness. It will save your life and if you do have an accident with the shoulder harness and survive the medical costs alone will be farmore than the cost of the inertia reel. You can google that it is a fact.

[W.J.Langholz]

Justin

I can not reiterate enough what Tim said. You are buying a plane not the books. Even if you are good at the "type" you are buying take a A&P that is also well versed in "Type" with you, 2 sets of eyes are better than 1. 60+ year old plane, chances are it had some kind of repair done, and providing it was done correctly it should be fine. There are alot of planes that are out there in which repairs have been done and never documented, logs books are good to have but don't believe what you read, check the plane over from 1 end to the other and remember....most everything is a trade off, it is either reflected in the price upfront or it will be a cost for you to fix after purchase. Even when you think you have you have seen everything that may need some fixing.....save alittle egg money, because in that first year of ownership you will find something you have missed that will need some addressing.
Does the plane fit your needs?
Do you fit the plane?
Does the plane fit your budget?

There are people out there selling that really think they have something....but don't. There are people that their plane is for sale but really don't won't to sell BUT love to talk about it. And the proverbial.....if it's too good to be true.....you got it....it generally is.

So A or B.........

A good solid plane at a fair price is worth every penny paid for it.

[juredd1]

Marathonrunner,
I surely want the whole body support but I am just not sure about the inertia system. I’ve never had one so I just thinking out loud here. I am guessing they make the same type of system without the inertia reel. Just wondering how far it lets you reel out there before it grabs ya. Thanks for the info.

W.J.
Thanks again for your input and advice. I understand what you and Tim are saying. My Uncle has said for years the logs are only as good as the ones writing in them. I believe the 170 will fit my needs; I don’t plan on having any more kids so the 4 seater should do it for now as they are small. I’ll just have to see when they get older if they still want to be seen with dad by then how the money is looking. As for, do I fit the plane…..Well I hope I can whip this thing called a tail dragger. I don’t have my tail wheel rating yet but I just hope that with the right instructor that I’ll make a good tail wheel pilot someday. If not then I’ll move back to a tri-cycle gear. I won’t know until I give it a try.

[GAHorn]

Sorry to have been distracted and come so late to this discussion.

I'm suprised no one seems to have mentioned two extremely advantageous reasons to prefer a B-model over an A.

1-Tail feathers and flight controls. Much better availability of parts and commonality with L-19 and C-172 aircraft. Hangar rash issues on elevators are MUCH simpler to resolve with a B-model, simply exchange the elevator entire outboard sections including tips, counterweights, and ribs, with replacement assemblies from L-19A. (I bought two spares in Cessna boxes for my personal NOS collection for $20 each. No. They're not for sale. If I sold them, I'd have instant hangar-rash on both my elevators.)

2. Engine compartment. The A-model uses Model-T Ford cowl doors and internal airboxes for baffles instead of the much improved, later "pressure cowl" used by all the 172 and other aircraft up to the present time. While Air Forms (under new name) has air box parts for earlier aircraft, the availability and design of the later pressure-cowl is far superior to the earlier system. And the cowling itself is much more widely available than the early A-model cowls, scoop, etc..

3. Instrument panel. The later B-modles have much more real estate into which one can place instruments/avionics/etc. The typical A-modle has more limited capability in this regard. (This may not be a major matter for those who operate solely VFR.)

The heater was mentioned. And it's significatly better in the '53 and later B-models. Significantly better. And it actually does heat the rear seat area with the side-panel distribution system,...same as the later Cessnas.

The biggest problem I would have with the B-model being discussed is the story about the stolen logs.
Why would anyone steal someone else's logs? The first reason I can imagine..... he didn't pay an invoice and someone is holding those logs for payment. This implies a potentially dishonest seller/prevous-owner....and/or a possible lien against the airplane. Not all liens are recorded with FAA. Some are recorded with local tax offices and local gov't agencies. Even the IRS can and does impound airplanes for reasons totally unknown to the FAA.
(Stories exist about new owners finding their airplanes chained to the ramp when they unknowingly visit an FBO holding an outstanding Invoice against the aircraft's previous owner. Yes, the new owner likely can beat it if an actual "lien" was never filed. But it'll be troublesome, or embarrasing, or expensive, or all three.)
If you buy this B-model, buy title insurance.