Newbie Questions on the 170B

[PilotMikeTX]

Is there an STC to add the counterbalances to the elevator on an A model? I can't imagine it does anything performance-wise, but it gives a more refined feel that I like. And does the counterbalanced elevator by any chance "rest" in the neutral position instead of full down? Mine gets in the way of my tow bar unless I activate my Super-Duper Fail-Safe STC'd PMA'd control lock (seatbelt) to hold it neutral.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

The balanced elevator though similar is different in shape as well as having different hinges than the A model. With out also changing the horizontal stabilizer you just can't change out the elevators. it is not a matter of adding weights to the A model elevator.

Then there are the legalities of this change which could spark another thread similar to non-ad verses ad oil or 100LL verses MOGAS.

Suffice it to say most people would consider this change to require an approval of some sort. There is no STC.

While the balanced elevator is more likely to stay in another position other than down I've found mine stays down when at rest most of the time.

The elevator difference really is no big deal.

[zero.one.victor]

There is no question that the 170 and the 170A are great airplanes. But lets be honest, ---- the B model with wing dihedral and the counter ballances in the elevators is a definite improvement. It simply is an improvement over the earlier models. If it wasn't an improvement, I feel sure Cessna would have gone back to the old system on all the subsequent airplanes of all models they built.

I don't buy this at all! Seems to me that the main difference in counterbalanced & non-CB'd elevators is when the airplane is stationary. When you're flying the slipstream is gonna have a major effect on the way the elevators feel, I'd have to say that the counterbalances are like a fart in a whirlwind compared to that.
And I don't agree that all "improvements" made to later models are improvements. For example, I'd much rather have a 170 or an early 172 or 182 or 180 than a later 60's or 70's model. Except for the fact that they're 10 or 20 years older & more beat up, of course. Among other things, I think the early 1948-52 cowl arrangement and panel is better than later styles.
To me, the main difference with a B is the big flaps. And even that isn't that big of a deal. I would guess that a good pilot can take off and land shorter in a ragwing or A model than a mediocre pilot in a B. In other words, it's the pilot's skills that usually make the crucial difference, not the difference in equipment.
The main advantage a B (and an A) has over the ragwing is the life expectancy of the wings. And with the new modern fabrics & finishes, a good re-cover job will last virtually forever if the airplane is hangared.
So there!

Eric

[GAHorn]

There is no question that the 170 and the 170A are great airplanes. But lets be honest, ---- the B model with wing dihedral and the counter ballances in the elevators is a definite improvement. It simply is an improvement over the earlier models. If it wasn't an improvement, I feel sure Cessna would have gone back to the old system on all the subsequent airplanes of all models they built.

I don't buy this at all! Seems to me that the main difference in counterbalanced & non-CB'd elevators is when the airplane is stationary. When you're flying the slipstream is gonna have a major effect on the way the elevators feel, I'd have to say that the counterbalances are like a fart in a whirlwind compared to that.
And I don't agree that all "improvements" made to later models are improvements. For example, I'd much rather have a 170 or an early 172 or 182 or 180 than a later 60's or 70's model. Except for the fact that they're 10 or 20 years older & beat up, of course. Among other things, I think the early 1948-52 cowl arrangement and panel is better than later styles.
To me, the main difference with a B is the big flaps. And even that isn't that big of a deal. I would guess that a good pilot can take off and land shorter in a ragwing or A model than a mediocre pilot in a B. In other words, it's the pilot's skills that usually make the crucial difference, not the minor difference in equipment.
The main advantage a B (and an A) has over the ragwing is the life expectancy of the wings. And with the new modern fabrics & finishes, a good re-cover job will last virtually forever if the airplane is hangared.
So there!

Eric

You'd be in the smallest-minority of opinion in pilot circles (not to mention aeronautical-engineer circles) in that position, Eric.
The counterbalanced controls have significant advantages of the earlier versions. Cessna didn't do it so it could "sit" better on the ramp. The reason it was done was for the same reasons it is done on other more modern designs, including better handling at all speeds and lighter, more sensitve control response. It bears especially advantageous benefits in turbulence and at high speed. The only time counter-balanced controls have NO advantage over non-balanced controls is when at rest (static).
The flap argument you propose is also ill chosen, in my opinon. You can't suppose that an excellent pilot will always be flying the early airframe and the "mediocre" pilot will always be flying the B model. The fact is that ANY pilot with whatever skill he possesses....will be better equipped and better enabled in the airplane which is equipped with better flaps. The proof of that statement is in the performance data obtained by the factory test pilots. They flew all models of 170 during data development, and the published data showed the later airplanes with superior performance to the earlier ones.
The 48-52 cowl arrangement is obsolete, unnecessarily complex, and inefficient compared to pressure cowls. There is absolutely nothing "better" about it over the latter system, including accessibility, efficiency, and durability. If that were not true, then you can be assured that the earlier design would have prevailed. (There has never been any criticism of the later design as compares to the earlier "cooling-box" design, and no amount of sneering could overcome the costs of R&D and the continued industry-acceptance of the pressure cowl, and no amount of pride-of-ownership of the earlier system can overcome the obvious preference the entire industry has for the pressure cowl over the heavier, more complex, separate cooling-box design.
I also disagree with your opinion on the ragwing's durability. I believe that due to the ragwing's construction (and need for periodic rebuilding) it has an inherent advantage when being considered for longevity. Because it will be inspected/rebuilt by design (it was never intended as a permanently assembled/not-to-be deliberately torn down/inspected/rebuilt design)...it stands a better chance of surviving the race against time than an all metal design which ultimately will face condemnation (without far more expensive overhaul than the fabric version....hence the all metal design is less likely to be restored at some future degenerated state than the similarly degenerated ragwing.)

[zero.one.victor]

This isn't the first time I've been in "the smallest minority of opinion"! And that's what a lot of this is, is opinion.
I disagree about the old versus new cowl design. To check the oil, I pop 2 latches & open up one whole side, thereby enabling me to closely inspect things. I even do my oil & filter changes just by opening up the top cowl. To do this with the later cowl, I'd have to get a screwdriver & remove the entire top cowl, due to it's having just the little oil door(s).
And if the airbox-type baffling arrangement is so antiquated, how come Jabiru uses as factory standard OEM? This is probably the most modern air-cooled aircraft engine design out there.
If you're happy with your big flaps & pressure cowl, great. I don't think that they're necesarily improvements over the earlier features. My opinion. And my point is that most people who buy a ragwing or A model will not miss the "improved" features of the B. So don't blow off the rag or A models, they're generally priced more affordably and will provide just as much pleasure as the B's.

Eric

[GAHorn]

Yep, the earlier 170/170A airplanes are certainly fine airplanes. If a good example is found at a fair price, it wouldn't do to pass it up just over the cowl/flap situation. (But I'll admit I deliberately shopped only for 53-55 B-models when I was looking.)
As for the oil change....I don't remove any cowls at all. I drain the oil and change the filter from below at the lower cowl opening (like most folks do), and open the foot-tall door to pour in the new oil. There's no need to remove the upper cowl.

[cessna170bdriver]

... As for the oil change....I don't remove any cowls at all. I drain the oil and change the filter from below at the lower cowl opening (like most folks do), and open the foot-tall door to pour in the new oil. There's no need to remove the upper cowl.

I'd never make it as an A&P because I work so slow, but I've worked this job both ways, and I've found that I can remove the cowl (at least the lower half), change the oil, and reinstall the cowl faster than I can change oil with the cowl installed. The difference is in re-safetying the screens or oil filter with the limited space and light afforded by an installed cowl. George, when I take you up on your offer of hospitality someday, I'll be glad to let you show me how you do it (on my airplane, of course). I'll provide the oil and the Becks.

Miles

[jrenwick]

I like the late model 170Bs for their excellent heaters, but maybe that's just the Minnesota perspective. I'm told a good, clean 170 can weigh less than an all-metal model, and that's pretty important. Actually, the statement was that a 170's useful load could be the same as its empty weight. Anybody got one that's 1100# empty?

John

[zero.one.victor]

If you mean without the engine, mine qualifies!

[GAHorn]

If memory serves, the all metal A model's wings actually saved about 12 lbs over the ragwing airplane, due to the all-metal wing's stressed skin construction. A bit more weight (and drag) savings is probably realized by the change to a single aluminum strut instead of a two-piece steel strut.
I briefly reviewed Bill Thompson's book to confirm the exact weight savings but didn't quickly locate any reference, but 12 lbs is what I recall reading somewhere.

[JMACFLY]

Tony, I live in Winter Park and base my 170A at Orlando Exec. Presently the plane is over at New Smyrna Beach for annual, but when it gets back into circulation, I invite you to come for a ride. There are several 170s in central Florida to look at and maybe one will be available. I flew up to several weekend courses in Griffin, GA. These were EAA sponsored sheet metal, and aircraft painting classes. Griffin is just south of Atlanta, and about 3.5 hours from Orlando Exec.
JMac

[3958v]

Tony Many people including myself started looking for a B model only to find a better ragwing or A model for the budget they had. In my case I no longer would even consider upgrading. I have never felt that I did not want to go into a certain field because I dont own a B model. The weights vary more on equipment lists than on models. I consider heat to be the most improved feature of later 170s. From your discription of your needs any model 170 will fill your needs so buy the one with the best condition airfame for your money. Bill K.

[aoresteen]

John,

Thanks for your offer! I'd like to sit in a 170 and take a closer look at one. I used to live in Peachtree City (just south of ATlanta) and I've been to Griffen Ga many, many times!

When we drive to Atlanta to see our kids & grandkids we exit 75 at Griffen.

Thanks!

Tony

[JMACFLY]

Tony, after looking at mapquest to see where you live, Monteverde,FL is located just north of Gilbert field, Winter Haven,FLorida. Richard Woodsum, CFI, runs a tailwheel endorsement program at Winter Haven with his Cessna C170B. Don't just sit in one, go get some dual. There are plenty of sod fields around for Dick to introduce you to the joys of flying this plane. Dick has vortex generators on the wings for those of you that would like to see what that's like. Maybe others reading this could schedule a little dual with the VGs during their visit to Lakeland's Sun N Fun, the next airport to the west.

PM for Dicks email address
John

[cessna170bdriver]

I'll be in Florida over the Christmans holidays. If I have time, I think I'll go down to Winter Haven and see what the VG's are all about.

Miles