The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Bruce's response is so succinct,...and so reasonable... it cannot be improved upon, IMO.

The reason I offered my previous comments re: heated pitot, was possibly due to my misunderstanding your own:

flylow wrote:... What do I need? I really don't want to put much money into the panel ...Some things I think I'll need: ..., new airspeed indicator ...
Thanks for any help! I really don't know what I need, so any advice is greatly appreciated!

I took that to mean you wanted to make your airplane IFR-capable without spending a lot of unnecessary money.

My own panel is not a basic "T"...and the only thing that has troubled me with it is when I've had an actual non-standard hold at a "goofy fix" (not depicted on charts or GPS) in turbulence. Making such frequent 180-degree turns in turbulence while my head is held at a 45-degree right-deflection from the direction-of-travel.... to read that AH provides quite a bit of conflicting input to the inner-ear. (In other words...I really had a difficult time truly-believing that old AN-horizon and began to feel drunk.) One of my next expenditures will be to UN-original my panel by moving the T&B to one of my blank places and install a back-up, modern, pictorial AH in it's place. I'll likely do that by replacing my standard venturiis with "super" venturiis to provide sufficient vacuum to run all three vac-driven gyro's ..dual AH's plus DG... rather than spend money on a pricey elect AH which, as a group/type, happen to suffer miserable failure rates.

I recently finished my new panel with plans for getting my CFII in my own plane. In addition to the upgraded standard equipment, the only instument I needed to add was a VOR w/glide slope. Don't forget that you will need instruments to perform both precision and non-precision approaches. Also, don't forget that marker beacons are required for ILS precision approaches so you will need to install at least one more antenna. One VOR head with glide slope will take care of both precision and non-precision approaches. If you want to spend some more money, you can put in a panel mount GPS that will also allow you to fly approaches.

If you plan on using your 170 for flying IFR after you get your rating, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to use it to get your rating. Why spend the time and money getting used to another plan, then re-train yourself to fly your 170?

quote]Pilot currency, The biggest problem I see here is that guys dont realize what it costs to stay current. You must do your precision an non precision approaches every 6 months.[[/quote]

The above quote leaves me a little nervous. I don't think the FAR regs. specify "precision or non precision" apc's. To my memory, it only states "instrument apc's". I need to get to my FAR AIM and check it out for my piece of mind.

In regards to your inquiring if you should install a DME, I obtained my IFR 2 yrs. ago in my 170. It has only a localizer and a glide slope which led me to believe (going into training), that I could get into just about anywhere. What I learned is that most airports in my area that have an ILS will have a "DME or ADF REQUIRED" stamped right on the apc. plate. So if your area is similar to mine, anyway you can get an IFR legal source of DME will give you many more options for airports you can get into.
I'm personally saving my pop cans for a GNS 430 for a couple of reasons.
One is that it will add a couple benefits to my equipment, such as the DME, as well as the IFR GPS. I think it would be fun and convenient to be able to fly the new GPS T-routes? that are popping up in the big cities.
And secondly for the gee-whiz factor. I have come to the realization that I will never be an airline or coorperate pilot, so if I want to fly behind some of the newer equipment, I need to put in my own plane. I am glad however, that I learned to do IFR on the basic steam gauge configuration, but now I'm ready to venture out there and experience some of the newer stuff (at least 15 yrs. ago new).

Any way, enjoy your training. I sure did.

Tom

gahorn wrote:I took that to mean you wanted to make your airplane IFR-capable without spending a lot of unnecessary money.

Thanks for the help gahorn. The question probably came off the wrong way. I do not want to spend unnecessary money. I know some believe changing the pitot tube is better because of moisture. I was just wondering how much work was involved. I don't think at this time I will install one, but I may in the future. I found a 337 for the installation on a friend's aircraft, which answered my main question of being able to keep the original plumbing.

tweiss: Thanks for the help. I just read the approach for my airport and ADF is required. I just took that out a couple years ago. I am not sure where I'll have room for ADF.

Thanks for all the help.

My 170 was barely IFR-capable when I bought it. It had rock-solid gyros, and the pitot-static system was certified, but it only had a single VOR for navigation, no glide slope. I wanted to upgrade it to something I could be more confident flying in the clouds, meaning an IFR-certified GPS, and in this particular situation the GNS 430 was actually the cheapest solution the avionics shop could quote me. The 430Ws were brand-new then, so I upgraded to that. I ended up with two fewer boxes in my panel than before: the 430, a KX125 nav/com that was previously installed, an audio panel with integral MBR and intercom, and a transponder. The 430 is absolutely wonderful, especially when augmented with a 396 or 496 hand-held GPS, because the 430's moving map display is pretty marginal -- especially if it's not mounted at eye-level, which is hard to do in a 170. The 430W gives you a synthesized glide slope on every GPS approach, and sometimes you can actually use it down to an MDA that's lower than you can go without GPS. I love this set-up!

LBPilot82 wrote:Also, don't forget that marker beacons are required for ILS precision approaches so you will need to install at least one more antenna.

DME or Radar service can be substituted for a marker beacon on an ILS approach. An IFR GPS and certified installation can be substituted for a DME.

The key is what type of equipment is needed for the flights you plan to do. In order to get your instrument rating you need to demonstrate a precision and non-precision approach. What needs to be done is look at the approaches you will use to train and take a check ride and that is the equipment you need for that area. It is likely to be different in another area. The best thing to do would be talk to your instructor to see what he thinks is needed and that might actually be what the examiner you will use thinks is needed.

• § 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
  (c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
  
  (1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought—
  
  (i) At least six instrument approaches;
  
  (ii) Holding procedures; and
  
  (iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems.

The FARs do not specify what type of approaches need to be done to remain current.

If I am not mistaken, a Garmin 430 can be upgraded to WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) which will allow APV approaches (vertical guidance) and LNAV, VNAV. While not as accurate as ILS, these are becoming more available and will solve the problem of the missing DME or missing ADF (soon be relegated to museums). I know the GNS 530 can get the upgrade but I am not sure about the 430. In any event, the 430 is the best value on the market for anyone needing a reliable IFR navigation system for a light airplane (IMHO)

I just like George's (NON) PINK Interior...... ok I had 1 too many crown and 7's b/4 i read this


W.

voorheesh wrote:If I am not mistaken, a Garmin 430 can be upgraded to WAAS....

The 430s are upgradable. The factory installs a new circuit board, I believe. There are rules that come with it, though. If the coax to your antenna isn't the right stuff (and I've forgotten what that is) it will have to be replaced. There may be interference issues with your COM radios that will have to be resolved, probably with just a notch filter here and there. The most notable change is that if the 430W is not located in your normal scan, i.e. within certain distances to the side and above/below your flight instrument array, there has to be an annunciator added that is in your scan. In my panel (photo above) the annunciator is located to the lower right of the artificial horizon. It alerts you to several things, like a message for you on the GPS unit, loss of GPS integrity, waypoint arrival, whether your CDI is following the GPS or the VOR/LOC, and so on. I'm very glad it's there, frankly.

I have the early version of the 430. My avionics tells me it will cost $3,000 for the WAAS upgrade.

Robert Eilers wrote:I have the early version of the 430. My avionics tells me it will cost $3,000 for the WAAS upgrade.

They had a $1500 deal for a while, but it ended a couple of years ago.

John

jrenwick wrote:

Robert Eilers wrote:I have the early version of the 430. My avionics tells me it will cost $3,000 for the WAAS upgrade.

They had a $1500 deal for a while, but it ended a couple of years ago.

John

It's a common problem when a company gets too big for their britches and fails to service their customer-base.

I'm still trying to install my Garmin Aera 510 but I can't get Garmin to provide proper support.

The short-story is: They admitted to me (in writing) they screwed up and failed to provide an appropriate cable for their mounting options. That was FIVE months ago. They still have no good solution. (They want me to patch something up....I want them to provide proper materials.) They can't even answer a simple question: I have a monaural intercom...while their unit has a stereo audio output. I want to know if I can "marry" the two output-channels (left/right) together or not. If not, then how do I connect a stereo output? Their "customer service" guy "Damon" cannot read a simple question...he merely repeated the previous responses that I'd already copied him in on that failed to address the question.

My Aera 510 sits on the desk...UN-installed and UNuseable. $1500 so far, wasted.

Flylow, Good Morning. Lot’s of interesting comments. Richard provided some excellent advice to you and as a side note, his panel was the fuel that got me to re-do mine. A bit of background – my 170B was equipped with a KX-125, which has an internal CDI window on the radio, a stand alone 4 place intercom, a transponder and stock 7-hole panel. I did not have a separate NAV head in the panel. I was able to fly IFR, but was limited to VOR and localizer approaches only. In addition, if you got really technical, my home airport (PVC – Provincetown MA.) requires an ADF for the ILS approach, for which I could only do the localizer portion of the approach anyway. Not the best, or really legal way to skin a cat considering what my airplane was equipped with. But… with the proper approaches, I could legally maintain currency.

So, my solution was to build a duplicate of the 8-hole panel used in a 170 and set it up with an Century 360A H-S-I, which is vacuum driven and running just fine off of the venturi with a regulator (See the post “Instrument Panel Upgrade” last December timeframe for the types of instruments and locations I used). In addition, I added a PS Engineering 6000B audio panel and Garmin SL30 NavCom which requires NO external converters/receivers. This combination is really working nicely. The instruments all have NuLite lighting and and run thru a MaxDim 9100-001B Dimmer which stays very cool and has a full range of illumination from dim to bright with no dead spots. The plane also has a Garmin 196 mounted on the pilot’s side next to the ashtray, which is a very inexpensive situational awareness aid. I can e-mail you a picture of the panel, as I can’t yet post to the forum.

Regards,

The comments of Richard and George and others are so very much on target.

I'll add a comment following Bruce's excellent observations:

DME or Radar service can be substituted for a marker beacon on an ILS approach. An IFR GPS and certified installation can be substituted for a DME.

Do you have an audio panel? Many audio panels have a built in 3 light marker beacon receiver. While I do not believe that the marker beacon receiver is a requirement, I believe most of us would like to have it.

And if you do have or will have a three light marker beacon receiver...I challenge you to do what George Horn has done.
You know he has actually invested the time...and believe it or not....memorized the frequency for every airway, outer middle and inner marker beacon transmitter throughout the entire United States. The guy has a phenomenal memory!

Bob