Rudder cable replacement

[N2613V]

I am in the process of replacing the rudder cables on N2613V C-170 ser no 18123. I have replacement cables from McFarland and started to pull the old ones out and the threaded rod that screws into the turnbuckle will not fit through the #6 formica fairlead just inside the fuselage where the cable comes out to attaché to the turnbuckle and rudder bell crank. There is no access on the tail section, and the rear bulkhead will not allow access through the inside of the fuselage. Has anyone dealt with this problem? From looking at the parts manual I am guessing that the cable assembly was installed before the horizontal and vertical stabilizer were added.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

[c170b53]

Mike I thought there was a post reply since you posted your question but it seems to have disappeared or maybe it was a different post but here goes; (Then again it could just be me, as lately I got a new Imac and its automation has been causing havoc in my home. )
Try looking at thi post to get an idea of what's inside on. "B"
http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtop ... ad#p102742

When I've had to get at the nuts that retain the fairleads, I've had to work though the hole where the elevator push pull tube exits the fuselage. With the right tools it's straight forward.
I'm not sure of your capabilities, sometimes it helps to just give some of your background, to help some of us give you more specific responses. From your query, I'm thinking you assist in your annuals but you may not be qualified to sign the work your thinking of undertaking. Just some food for thought here and my standard disclaimer;
I work in the commercial end of aviation maintenance and I try to adopt the work practices from my work and apply them to my plane whenever possible. In this case, the work merits an independent check or "dual inspection" in my world. That would mean to have someone check the cable installation after it's been installed and by " Independant" that person would not have been involved in the cables replacement. That individual would be signing the logbook attesting that the cable replacement mets the airworthiness standards for such work.
The reason I bring this up, is to suggest, that you line someone up who is qualified to check your work and who is willing to assist you should you have difficulties.
For the record I believe everyone has to start somewhere when working on their planes, some will need more help than others but in some cases, sometimes the student ends up being the teacher.
I would recommend you use every safety net available and by asking questions you're on the right path. Let's us know how you're making out!

[hilltop170]

Excellent advice Jim!

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Here is another thread with a picture of the #6 Fairlead (formica) or S338-10 as it can now be found.

http://cessna170.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6239

In this thread you can see the fairlead and how it is attached. From the picture in the other thread you could see how one would have a helper with the appropriate socket drive extension combo, reach the nuts through the opposite cable exit, while you unscrew the screws holding the fairlead to the inside of the fuselage. Once they are unattached I would fish the entire fairlead out the cable exit hole and disassemble it, freeing it from the old cable. Then install on the new cable and reverse the disassembly steps.

[GAHorn]

Jim, in the U.S. ...it is technically required that any work performed by an uncertificated repairman be under the "direct" supervision of a certificated person qualified to perform that work. In other words... one would be offering technically incorrect advice to suggest that after a person performs the work...that another "independant" person who did not participate in the work should inspect and sign it off.

I believe the advice you offered did not intend to suggest that... but that your advice is to have another, independent set of eyes look over the work PRIOR to the "close-out" of the work... as a method of a safety-check that nothing has been left undone, tools remaining in the work area, confirming fasteners, etc etc, such as you undoubtedly do at your workplace.

Mike, I'm not trying to criticize, or offer undue scrutiny, ... I'm only attempting to confirm what the rule says... It's up to each of us to decide how we comply with that rule every time we undertake a project. Jim's advice (I believe) is intended to suggest that when you and your A&P are satisfied with your work... that you have another set of eyes look at it before you close up and quit. It's amazing how we can become acclimated to looking at the same thing all day long..and then someone else walks up and notices that something is wrong with what we've looked at all day. (I'm thinking of a time when an A&P completed work on his own plane, and an inspector looked at it and signed it off, and how I did a cursory walk-around of the thing...then we flew it and the flaps became jammed in the full-down position during a flight-test. It turned out that all three of us overlooked the fact that the flap roller nuts were only finger-tight and never torqued down into the nylon of the locking portion of the nuts. When they vibrated in flight the flaps became jammed.)

[c170b53]

In a sense knowing how to attend to the paperwork can be as difficult as doing the work itself.
I'm not putting forth that an unlicensed individual can work alone. Does that happen? I'm sure it does.
The purpose of an independent check is, as you suggest George, the work is inspected with fresh eyes and a mind that hasn't had a chance to be influenced by those doing the work. The scope of the inspection is up to the person signing, as they are taking on the responsibility of their signature. But that's just a bit of my world, others will have their methods and processes likely just as effective.
There's no surprise that the rules are open to interpretation. I think we understand the intent but I ask, direct supervision means exactly what?

[bagarre]

In my line of work, that's called Code Review. A fresh set of eyes approves the changes. It can slow things down but errors are reduced dramatically.

Regarding direct supervision...who knows. Actually be the employee's supervisor? Directly supervising each rivet and nut? So when the A&P goes to the john, all work has to stop?

Or is having a working relationship to know the persons abilities, discussing the work up front, being available for questions as needed and reviewing the work periodically before closing things up sufficient?

Like most things in the FAA, this one also depends on the mood of the person being asked.

[wingnut]

.........Or is having a working relationship to know the persons abilities, discussing the work up front, being available for questions as needed and reviewing the work periodically before closing things up sufficient?.....

Yes, for rated mechanic supervision of the work when performed by a non-rated mechanic, AND for when an experienced A&P mechanic is supervising another A&P who has no previous experience performing certain task. In both cases, a qualified but "disinterested" 3rd party should perform an inspection of the work at completion.

[voorheesh]

I am in a pretty good "mood" so I'll take a shot at this. Just remember that there is probably someone in a bad "mood" who will completely disagree with me, Thats aviation, right? Anyway I believe that the answer to the question of what defines supervision is entirely up to the discretion of the certificated mechanic who is taking responsibility for the work being done. The system is built upon trust that certificated airmen whether they be pilots or maintenance technicians will do the right thing. If your supervising mechanic trusts you or has knowledge of your abilities, he/she can allow appropriate latitude providing they retain responsibility. The mechanic has to exercise sufficient supervision to ensure the work is accomplished and recorded properly. Once it is returned to service, the supervising mechanic owns it.

The FAA does not go peeking in hangars or looking over airmen's shoulders trying to find targets for enforcement based on their level of supervision. This issue occasionally comes up in accident investigations where faulty work or poor record keeping is noted and it can get interesting. It also comes up when someone buys an airplane and discovers serious deficiencies despite perfect maintenance records and shiny skin. They run to the nearest FAA office and demand justice. Personalities and economics can play a big role. Why do you want to do your own work? Do you want to learn? Save money? What kind of attitude does the person being supervised display? Humble? Know it all? The best examples of supervised maintenance are guys like Kyle Fosso who are learning an amazing skill and give us hope that this craft will survive. Pilots like George and Bruce may not have A&Ps (Not sure) but have knowledge and skill that would earn them considerable leeway and respect from any A&P or IA they happen to be working with. I know for a fact there are A&Ps who call on them for info. Arash and his accounts of rebuilding an engine under supervision of a "take no prisoners IA" is a great example of supervised maintenance leading up to a skill that will last a lifetime. I humbly suggest that this is the best approach to take when dealing with this question.

Something else to consider is the supply of experienced technicians qualified to maintain our aging equipment. A good friend in Fresno, IA Alan Buchner, just turned 80 and told me he is taking on less work. Other experienced IAs are getting close to retirement. Who will replace them? I hope that we as a group take this into account and support our maintenance professionals. We need them!! One last thing, the answers including pictures provided to the original poster of this thread are testimony to the value including safety value of owner clubs such as TIC170A whether the pilot is being supervised or not.

[JohnNielsen]

I installed my new rudder cables while the tail was still off. There are two-piece split formica barrells inside the most rear bulkhead cavity that are installed after the cable is inserted and the only way to get to them is from the top with the tail off. Some of the 170B models also had that goofy tangle of cables to actuate the tail wheel steering arms also.
John