Does anyone have any thoughts of wisdom on the subject of a panel mount CD player that is of automotive type instead of aviation certified.
As most of you have seen there are 2 or 3 manufactures (such as PS Engineering) who have "certified" panel mount CD players for sale. BUT, I do not value listening to a CD in flight at $1100-1500. I have for a while plugged in my CD Walkman into portable intercoms before and it was great, but I have seen in many aircraft advertisements automotive CD players in the panel.
Just last month in I believe it was in Plane and Pilot Magazine, there was a Cessna Cardinal that had an Alpine CD player in the panel.
I have seen aircraft with all brands of CD players installed (Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood, etc.) right in the panel and I want one as well, but I don't want it to be a shady area within the plane.
As far as to what I have gathered you do to install it is this: You take the pre-amp outputs (below 4 volts for most panel mount intercoms) and put in into your intercoms music input lead. I have a PS Engineering 501 intercom that will automatically interrupt the music when a radio becomes active and you can even isolate the pilot from the passengers music.
As always, any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Karl, I appreciate your reply and taking the time to read my post and try to help. I have for a while been doing just what you suggested but I have grown tired of cords in the cockpit. I like a clean cockpit and that is the main reason why I want to have a panel mount CD player. That is also the same reason why I went with a panel mount GPS, instead of fiddling with my portable and the power and antenna cords that went with it.
For further reply postings: Please only reply if you are dealing with the panel mount CD player issue at hand. How to make it work, or any other information you or a friend might have or experiences you might have come across on how other aircraft you may have seen with these installed did it (meaning paperwork if any at all was done).
Again Karl, I appreciate your time and reply but that wasn't really in the direction I was wanting to go with this.
Thank you to all that may reply. I understand that this may not be a topic that interest some of you but I know that about 90% of all who read this have more experience with the C170 than I do. TIC170A is an insurmountable resource for people like myself to be a part of.
There are four ways for an appliance such as a CD player to be legally installed in your C-170 according to FAR 21.305. The most common way is for the appliance to be approved by TSO (Technical Standard Order). If it is removable/portable it does not need to be TSO'ed. Even if you install a TSO'ed PS Engineering CD player it still needs a 337 form for the installation. FAR 21.305 (d) says an appliance (CD player) may also be approved "in any other manner approved by the Administrator." In other words if you can get the FAA to allow a field approval of the installation of a car stereo it's OK. In the past I've seen the FAA buy off on the installation of a motorcycle battery in a J-3. Good luck finding someone at your local FSDO to sign off on installing non-TSO'ed equipment these days. It ain't gonna happen. Stick with the portable unit or shell out the big bucks for a TSO'ed unit.
JB,I may not be posting what you want to hear. (but that's nothing new for me on these forums! )
But if it was me,I'd think about a portable CD player stashed in the glove box. Clean & out of the way,yet not a permanent installation so no 337 etc required. Run the wires out the back or bottom of the glove box to the audio imput of your intercom or audio panel.
I'm assumung that your 170 still has a glove box (some don't,due to radios installed in that location) and that the CD player in question will fit inside the glove box. Discman,walkman,????
I've just gotten off the phone with the Avionics Airworthiness Inspector at the SAT FSDO about this issue. He reconfirmed what he told me last year about this. Here's the deal.
Install it. Install it in accordance with FAR 43 using acceptable methods, materials and techniques as pertain to avionics installations, including crashworthiness (9-G's). In other words, use aircraft wire, use aircraft circuit breakers and/or fuses and mount it securely with aircraft hardware just like you would any other stand-alone aircraft radio. Insure that it does not interfere with other equipment. Make a logbook entry including the equipment list and wt and balance, and make certain it's signed off by at least an A&P. Do not file an unnecessary Form 337. (It's not a major repair or alteration. It does not violate or change the type design or function or airworthiness of the aircraft.)
Go enjoy the music. Don't let it prevent any required communications with ATC. That's it.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention. An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Do you have the name and number of the person you talked to at the SAT FSDO? That way, if my local FSDO needs to confirm what you stated they can call the person directly and save time and headache on all of us.
Nice to hear that my Sony CD Stereo is legal. Exploreit2 - thanks for bringing the subject up. You are right about having it installed in the panel nice and professional like. Northern Avionics in Anchorage put mine in with the other radio stack. We have had years of easy listening.
The bigger question here is the installation of non-TSO'd equipment in Part 91 aircraft. It is my understanding that for Part 135 aircraft, everthing in the panel must be TSO'd or PMA'd. But for Part 91 we don't absolutely need it. Does this waiver apply only to non-essential eqpt. like a stereo/cd or can we install non-TSO'd VHF radios and gyros too?
It's not a "waiver" as much as it's not a requirement. TSO'd equipment is usually required for commercial operations because of increased performance guarantees those operating certificates entail.
TSO's are performance characteristics that stipulate that equipment mfr'd under those TSOs will not interfere with other equipment mfr'd under those TSOs. If you are a commercial operator it is cheaper to simply buy TSO'd equipment rather than get questioned by your operations inspector, hire a DER to prove your desired equipment doesn't interfere with other installed equipment, sign it off, add it to your ops certificate, etc. etc.
When you're operating a Part 91 aircraft, for personal business and pleasure you don't have an operating certificate, and as the owner/operator YOU are responsible for determining the suitability of non TSO'd equipment. This is a subject that can take all day at a seminar, and cannot be covered completely in a discussion forum, but that is the botton line/summary.
I would be happy to give the name of the inspector in private correspondence, however it would not serve to do so here. The FSDO where you have your airplane based has jurisdiction and even a written opinion by my inspector can be overridden by your own.
I told my inspector I intended to publish his reply and he was OK with my "summary" of his comments, but asked me not to place his name on a response not written directly by himself. I doubt that your FSDO inspector's opinion will differ, but if you are concerned about it, it's a simple matter. Call your FSDO, tell them what you want to do, and follow their instructions.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention. An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
I e-mailed Tom Rogers at Avionics West in Santa Maria, CA http://www.avionicswest.com concerning this question. He said, ". . . according to our local FAA, the installation of anything that isn't TSO'ed/FAA approved, requires a form 337 approval. Our local office looks at non-TSOed parts as "unapproved" parts and as you know, installing unapproved parts can cause a lot of trouble.
I have heard some shops say they could install an automotive system as a minor and that's great if they can pull it off."
So the bottom line seems to be approval varies by region. Check with your local FSDO before modifying your panel. Now if I can just get them to agree that the installation of a TV/DVD player with surround sound is a minor alteration. Seriously, what would be nice to have on long trips is a Delphi XM or Sirius satellite radio.
When I asked about the Form 337, my inspector said, "Re-read FAR 1.1, "Major Alteration". (It says, "Major alteration means an alteration.... that might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness, or...That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.")
In his judgment none of those stipulations apply if the installation is done with the same quality as an avionics installation. I personally agree.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention. An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
I've heard both sides argues re: whether a 337 is required for an avionics installation. FWIW,the radio's currently in my panel were 337'd by the installer (an avionics shop) & approved for return to service under the authority of his status as a CRS (repair station).
I can see where an argument might be made that a radio installation could affect flight --short-out & cause a cabin fire, drown out or cause to fail a gear-warning system or IFR instrumentation,etc.
I would want it 337'd. Maybe you could find a more field approval-friendly FSDO if yours is not cooperative--Alaska maybe? An FAA approval is an FAA approval,no matter where it's signed,eh? Maybe your (certifed) installer's 337 along with digital pics,etc might even eliminate the need for an in-person inspection?
zero.one.victor wrote: An FAA approval is an FAA approval,no matter where it's signed,eh?
Eric
Eric the way I understand it since change 15 then 16, this is not the case. If something is approved in Alaska since change 15, under change 16, that wouldn't meet change 15, it's not good in the lower 49
Isn't that great
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Cessna® is a registered trademark of Textron Aviation, Inc. The International Cessna® 170 Association is an independent owners/operators association dedicated to C170 aircraft and early O-300-powered C172s. We are not affiliated with Cessna® or Textron Aviation, Inc. in any way.
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