C-145 Starter

[Robert Eilers]

Flew home my new C170B this last weekend and am in love. I have started a squawk list already (who doesn't have one?) and am working my way toward perfection (the perfect goal because you can never achieve it). The engine has 90 hrs on a 2003 overhaul, which included an overhauled started PN 1109656 (if that means anything to anyone). The previous owner explained that he removed the spring the starter came with because it made the starter to hard to pull. As a result, it is necessary after engine shut down to insure the starter plunger (?) is in the right position before the next start attempt. I check to insure the starter plunger will go all the way in, if not, I move the prop until it does. If I fail to do this, and the plunger is in the wrong position, the starter won't work. I am looking for a location to obtain a replacement spring. Is this a cmmon problem with the C145 (starter spring hard to pull)? I am also going to have the Real Gasket Push Rod Tube Modification Kit installed to eliminate the small leaks that exist.

[GAHorn]

The Delco-Remy starter part number is 1109656. The pull cable spring is a fairly light spring, similar to an automotive throttle return spring, or a short section of screen-door spring. If the correct spring is used, it should not pose an excessive effort to pull the cable.
That said, many aircraft do not have a spring connected to return the cable to the relaxed position at all, but it's important that the cable relax sufficiently that the starter shift lever not contact the starter pinion except during starting. (The pinion is that 1-inch plunger which the lever acts against, and which is pushed into the engine during start in order to present the starter drive gear to the engine's internal gear. It should not be necessary for you to position the propeller in order to effect an engine start. Pulling firmly upon the starter cable should plunge the pinion into the accessory case, and as the starter motor activates, the pinion/clutch gear should mesh with the engine just fine.)

In the TCM Overhaul manual, the instructions for adjusting the starter shift lever (and therefore the pull cable) are given in Section 17, pg 52..

"Adjustment of Starter Shift Lever
It is very important that the cable or wire control return spring should have sufficient tensions to bring lever to fully released position when control is released. It is also necessary that there be 1/16 inch minimum clearance between clutch shaft end and starter shift lever when control is released. There is 9/16 in. of travel at the starter gear pinion. It is very important that the starter lever compresses the starter pinion gear 7/16 in. of this travel before contacting the starter switch, the remaining 1/8 in. of travel will be used in making the electric contact of the starter switch."

[zero.one.victor]

I emphasize george's post- the part about adjustment of the starter lonkage being critical. If the starter motor is activated before the starter clutch (pinion gear) is fully engaged, you WILL chew up the teeth on the starter clutch gear, and probably on the coresponding gear inside the accesory case as well. Not a good thing. It's not hard to get the adjustment right, just make sure you know how it should be then make it so. Niagra ships adjustment ditrections with their starter clutches. Hopefully the engine overhaul included a new starter clutch as well as a new starter. When starter clutch fails it can ruin your whole day by spewing little bits of bearings & race right into the accesory case. Due to their design the pull-start clutch should have a lot longer service life than the key-start clutch, but eventually the pull-start clutch can fail too. I know my engine used to make a funny noise upon starting up, after major overhaul (including a new starter clutch) the noise wasn't there.

Eric

[David Sbur]

Try the link below for the Niagara ditty on adjustments. I wrote an article on the pull starters for the Cessna 120-140 Association regarding the oil seals. If anyone has any information on replacing the Oilite bearings (where to get, how to do) then please let me know.

The comments about the plunger being able to return fully are important. Niagara ditty makes a point about the plunger seals being able to allow this full return lest there be problems. Some folks apparently incorrectly put in new plunger seals other than the original leather seals, and these newer seals are not fully recessed-which restricts the rearward plunger travel.

FWIW our little birds (120/140's) have an extension part on the pull starter arm, where the cable attaches, that gives the 'pull' more torque and less effort. On my bird the return spring is somewhat less effective and I always make sure the T handle on the dash is pushed back to it's farthest inward travel.

http://www.niagaraairparts.com/pull_ica ... 0_2003.pdf

[GAHorn]

El Reno (800-521-0333) has seals, bearings, and everything else you need for the starter overhaul. (But having done this to a spare I have,...I'll send the next one to them. Those bearings are trouble.)

[zero.one.victor]

David, from what I understand, the factory eventually changed from the rawhide seal to a real steel and rubber seal. And also, some owners have had their starter mounting plate (for lack of a better description) machined so they can fit a seal instead of the rawhide. Evidently, some have been machined deeper than others. My O300 parts book and notes are at the hangar , so I don't have the part numbers handy, but there are two different Chicago Rawhide p/n's commonly listed as the correct part. They're identical re: ID/OD, the only difference is the thickness. I bought the wrong one at first, I realized it was too thick before I tapped it into place, so I exchanged it for the thinner one. NAPA has a cross-reference book for seals, give them the ID, OD, and thickness & they can come up with the appropriate part number. That's a good point you made, the seal MUST fit flush to allow the pinion ("plunger") to travel aft properly.

Eric

[David Sbur]

Eric,

The sizes I have for seals are Chicago Rawhide CR9859, and National Seal 5324-S. Chicago's are easy to find down here (Vancouver WA) but I think the National is a better product with (IMHO) better bearing surface to the shafts and a more durable design. Some notes I have from folks in the hotter areas of our country (AZ, So. CA, etc.) suggest the Chicago's aren't as durable so my gut is leaning to the National's. Either way, the size info comes from Niagara. You are right, they are a bear to remove so do so carefully or you will make matters worse!

If your starter plate adapter has not been modified then for leather seals contact Cumberland Aero/Kentucky 1-800-524-5319, talk to Gary Boss. You may have to soak them in oil for a bit to soften them up.

[wa4jr]

I've apparently got a big problem with my starter and could use a bit of advise. Went on a short flight today and heard a crackling in the intercom, then saw the LORAN go off and come back on along with the rest of the avionics, then saw the ampmeter needle doing a dance. Then things quickly calmed down to normal. This scenario repeated two or three times and I thought it time to land. Stopping in front of the hangar I heard a nasty noise like a shaft rotating in shot bearings. Shut down the engine and the sound was my starter motor still running. Not engaged with the engine, but just running. Shut off the master switch and the starter stopped. I cycled the master switch a couple of times and the starter would run each time but then on one cycle it stopped....but the rest of the electrical system appeared dead.
I eventually found the starter plunger was shorted to ground frying the battery through the master switch contactor. I had thought of taking the starter switch assembly off and trying to service the switch, but then considering the torture the starter motor had been through and the old age of the unit, I think it best to replace the stater. So my question is what is the best source for getting a copy of the TCM engine manual to guide me through the starter replacement? I'd also like some input on whether I should just get a rebuilt unit from Niagra Air Parts, or use a more modern version like the lightweight starter from Lamar? Don't want to hassle with the Skytec starter, but the Lamar unit looks like a direct replacement using a more modern lightweight construction. Any thoughts? I need to get this done ASAP as Oshkosh is looming Thanks for any help you fellas can give here.

[cessna170bdriver]

wa4jr,

Spend $20 at http://www.mccurtaintg.com/continen.htm#sku83300. It'll get you a CD with good quality, searchable overhaul and parts manuals for the C145/O300 in .pdf format. You can print as many copies as you like. There are chapters on the starter in both the overhaul and parts books. While you're at the web site, you might as well pick up the Cessna 100 series service manuals 1953-1968 at http://www.mccurtaintg.com/cessna1.htm#sku10003 for the same price.

Starter replacement is very straightforward, but refer to the manual for proper adjustment of the cable to prevent inadvertent engagement.

Miles

PS, I have an original starter that was working when removed back in March of this year. Make an offer.

[GAHorn]

John, check your Inbox.
If you get one from Niagra, consider getting their 5-roller clutch as well, and don't forget to ask them for the plunger shaft seal and mounting gaskets for the starter.
Personally, I like the original starters (not for their weight) but for their durability and price.
If you don't buy from Miles, ...
http://www.aerotechlou.com

Aerotech of Louisville
2209 Watterson Trail
Louisville, Kentucky 40299
Phone: 502-263-7090 (local)
Toll Free: 1-800-634-0190

[wa4jr]

Good Morning guys and thanks for the feedback! My inbox is empty on this site George, but I'll get to my email on the next cup of coffee I usually like to have a printed book so that I can store it on the bookshelf in the hangar and be able to sit down and read without messing with a computer...but I'll check out the offerings. I can always take a laptop out to the hangar I suppose. I like the idea of the Lamar starter as long as they build that new lightweight technology into the same motor chassis so that it is a direct replacement. Guess I'll have to chat with the folks at Spruce or Chief and se what they say. Yes, George I was planning on a new clutch. My unit appears to be untouched since engine overhaul in 1974 I think....I KNOW I've gotten my money's worth. I saw the new 5 roller clutch from NAP last night in my new copy of Trade-a-Plane. Staightforward...I suppose so for an aircraft engine. I would have like to have seen just two starter flange bolts and an inertial bendix pinion gear like my MGA had....starter change in less than 5 minutes Those were the days

[cessna170bdriver]

...I usually like to have a printed book so that I can store it on the bookshelf in the hangar and be able to sit down and read without messing with a computer...but I'll check out the offerings. I can always take a laptop out to the hangar I suppose.

With the McCurtain CD you can have both digital and hardcopies of both manuals, and at WAAAAY less that the cost of a hardcopy of one of them. I don't have a laptop, and never took my desktop computer to the shop. I printed out both books double sided and put them in 3-ring binders to work with in the shop. I pulled whatever page I needed to work with at any given time and didn't have to worry about holding the book open. I made notes as I worked, and the copies I used during overhaul have become part of the engine build book. For every day shop use, I'll print out a fresh copy. If you want someone else to print them for you, AC Spruce sells the overhaul manual for $84.50, and the parts book for $62.00. Besides the price, another nice thing about having the books on the computer is that if you're looking for some obscure reference, you can just do a search instead of poring through the whole thing.

Miles

[GAHorn]

Good Morning guys and thanks for the feedback! My inbox is empty on this site George, but I'll get to my email on the next cup of coffee

A copy of the required pages is in your email inbox.

[Tom Downey]

SkyTech light weight starter mod, is a much better fix..

[GAHorn]

Well, Tom and I just keep getting into that Chevy/Ford thing...
Except for weight, I prefer the origninal Delco-Remy starter for several reasons:
1- Cheaper...not only to purchase...($200 vs $600)..but also in additonal hourly labor costs. 2- Not necessary to alter the aircraft, so... 3- simpler documentation, no IA or Form 337 required, (and no worries about pivot cuttings or accy-case leakage, etc.) 4 - long history of service so mx issues are already pretty well known, 5 - Widely available, both entire units and replacement parts. (No "where can I buy such-and-such issues.)
Now as for weight, while the difference is significant (about 8 pounds) it's not that significant and at least the weight is up front where it does not have a CG issue.
Meanwhile the lightweight starters have issues all their own. Their permanent magnets are brittle and sometimes fracture, and when they do, if it falls into the armature it damages it. They do indeed spin the engine faster...which is important if you have non-retarded starting ignition... BUT we have IMPULSE COUPLINGS... which can actually be defeated if spun too fast. (Impulse couplings lock-out between 400-600 rpm, where some lightweight starters operate. If the impulse coupling does lock out, then the ignition is NOT retarded during start. This can make the engine difficult to start, and if the engine does fire it can run BACKwards and injure the (engaged) starter, the drive gears, and break internally. The bits-and-pieces then fall down into the engine, and where are you????
While I don't for a minute believe Tom is drumming up business, ... I do believe that mechanics who earn their living mechaniking have a different viewpoint about labor and modification costs (not to mention the relative merit of expensive mods. How many decades will one have to operate a lightweight starter to ever recover the costs??? It'll never happen. The original starter will always be more economical in every way.
Each to his own, but I recommend you keep life simple and just replace your proven original starter with another identical unit.