Newbie Questions #2

[aoresteen]

OK, I have a couple of more questions on the 170. I need to explain to my wife what the ongoing maintenance costs of a 170 will be, but I'm clueless.

1. What do you budget for the annual inspection cost?

2. What does a major overhaul on the Continenal C-145 engine cost?

3. Does the Continenal C-145 get 1800 hours between overhauls or does it need one sooner?

4. How much do you spend on minor maintenace items per year?

I live in the Orlando, FL area and would have the work done here.

Thanks in advance!

[N170BP]

I'll post a few numbers, but will first quote an old joke:

How much money will it take to purchase, fly & maintain
an [insert type of aircraft here]?

Answer: All of it!

In all honesty, while I used to wonder what everything
would cost, now I just fly it, fix it and pay the bills. The
nice thing is the 170 is a very simple, and very economical
4-place all metal aircraft to own, maintain & fly. It has precious
few ADs associated with it. One could argue (and many have)
that the C-172 is the best all-around aircraft value out there, but
the tailwheel is on the wrong end of the darned thing... so in steps
it's older brother, the C-170.

My annuals are around $300 (owner-assisted, A&P/IA is my best friend).

Mattituck quotes a "Complete engine overhaul package" at
$22,900, and their "Red Gold engine" (whatever that is) is
$26,960. There are no doubt, less expensive avenues to
take with a C-145 / O-300 overhaul (others with recent experience,
please chime in here).

I don't see why a well maintained, regularly run C-145 / O-300
wouldn't make 1800 hours or beyond. The key (like with other
aircraft engines) is to not let them sit idle for long periods of time.
I think in practice, you'll find a lot of folks who end up doing a top
overhaul somewhere between mid-time to TBO.

Maintenance items? I'd say less than $500/year, but my airplane
has largely been gone through (just about everything has been
overhauled and/or is new or has been restored).

Once you go through one of these things, it's nice to be able to
just pour gas in it, check the oil and go flying....

[N2865C]

I'll post a few numbers, but will first quote an old joke:

How much money will it take to purchase, fly & maintain
an [insert type of aircraft here]?

Answer: All of it!

Unfortunately it's not a joke ..... But it is worth every penny!!!! Tell your wife it is an investment in a classic aircraft that will appreciate in value every year..... works for me!!

I think Bela is right in the ballpark for costs IF you learn your airplane and do most of the maintance yourself, supervised by a friendly IA. Depending on what you have to work with I would guess that you could get a field overhaul in the $14,000 - 18,000 range. It's the "might as well do that while I'm in there" items that start adding up.

[sanships]

Aoresteen, you have to mention how many times you have owned your own airplane. If this is your first time, then getting the plane to a level acceptable to you and your wife will be the most expensive initial cost if you do not find a plane exactly what you want. Annuals and periodic maintenance costs will always follow your inner desire to have things working, first as required by your mechanic, then to your own level of safety or cosmetic appearance(or as your wallet allows).

I say this because I have my 170 as a project right now. I started it when I was less than 200 hours(2 yrs ago) right after taking a part ownership of a piper cherokee. After going through a major overhaul(prop and engine), painting, redoing electricals and avionics and interior upholstery, I have grown to appreciate the differences of opinion between partners on the level of maintenance that is acceptable to each. We have spent a lot of money on the piper but we have it just about acceptable to us now.

My 170 has been taken apart for corosion treatment(all rivets replaced in fuselage), engine sent to the US for overhaul at westernskyways($21K with replaced crank, all overhauled accessoriesand new jugs) and almost all safety mods being done right now. I will have basically a brand new plane when I am done but will also have almost $65 in it even before I start flying the thing(As you can imagine, there are only a limited amount of plane available here in the Philippines and only 2 170's flyable).

After what I have experienced, I would really recommend that you buy the best example of the plane you can. If you can live with not spending a thing right after you buy it then so much the better. I can get away with what I did by having a wife that is understanding and supportive. Also by saying that I can have almost a brand new plane for less than half a brand new one(and looks better too!), plus having it the way we want it is perfect for us. Luckily, labor charge here is relatively cheap and I can hire a full time mechanic for my plane during the rebuilding process.

So to sum it up, if this is your first plane, try to get the best maintained plane that you can. Go through 2-3 annuals so you can get a feel for the type of expenses that you want over what the mechanic requires. This association really gives a lot of info on the cost of doing stuff on the planes but it would really depend on the initial condition on where you are starting from.

Like most owners, I will probably have more, much more in my plane before I am done with it than it is worth. But I know that the 170 is cheap to maintain(after I'm done with it) and easy to fly and challenging enough to keep me interested for a lot of years to come. It will be a few years before the market value catches up to my cost before I can sell it or hand it down ot my kids someday. It truly is a classic!

Good luck on your search.

[aoresteen]

Thanks all! And yes, this would be my first airplane.

I just have a thing a taildraggers and I will never be able to own my dream airplane, a DC-3!

[cessna170bdriver]

Quote from an unknown source:

"Aircraft ownership is an incurable form of madness for which there is no known cure, so quit [complaining] and just write the check!"

Serously:

Lycon engine overhaulers in Visalia, CA have quoted me $18.5K (overhauling my cylinders) plus about 1.2K for factory new cylinders. Another poster recently said he did one himself for about 12K. If you find a friendly mechanic who'll give you credit for doing the dirty work yourself, you should fall somewhere between those two numbers.

If you fly it and bring it up to operating temperature about once a week, the engine should go the 1800 hours. The more it sits (especially in the humid environment you're in) the sooner you'll need a top overhaul.

Annual inspection cost varies with the deal you make with the inspector, and how familiar he is with the particular airplane. As with the engine, you can usually find someone who will allow (or require) your assistance for credit. Your mileage may vary, but the going rate around here is $600 to $700 if you help and $900 to $1000 if you just turn it over to them. Fixing any squawks is extra, of course; expect a few hundred dollars worth each annual.

I used to be treasurer of a flying club with a Cessna 150 and a Piper J-3. We set the total per hour operating cost at roughly double the hourly fuel cost, and we usually came out even. That has worked fairly well also for me and my one-owner 170. With a 170 these days, call it $50 per hour split between fuel and maintenance (including the annual). S--- happens though (even the newest 170 is pushing 50 years old), so keep a thousand or two handy for emergencies. I usually find it less depressing if I don't do a tally at the end of the year.

Also, don't forget the fixed costs, like storage and insurance. Hangar or tiedown costs vary greatly by geography, so just shop around. Insurance varies a good bit, also, but Travers, who advertises with the 170 Association gives a fairly good deal to Association members. Budget a thousand for full coverage, more if you have low conventional gear time or low time in type.

I quit trying to justify 170 ownership on an economic basis a long time ago. It costs what it costs, and all of my attempts at cutting corners have usually cost me in the long run. The best justification I've been able to come up with is that I fly because I like to fly, and if I didn't, I'd probably have to spend the money on therapy. I'm on my second wife, but I'm still on my first airplane, so let me tell you that you'll do best with her by emphasising the enjoyment of having the airplane. Your weekend outing radius is double or better what it would be in the car, giving you at least 4 times as many square miles from which to pick the fun places to go, not to mention the many friends you'll make on the way.

Miles

[GAHorn]

All good advice from those who know.
I'd add only a thing or two. (In my usual verbose style, of course.)
I've made money on every airplane I've ever owned, one way or the other. If you buy a good example of a good, popular model (170s certainly qualify), and keep it in good condition for at least 5 years, you'll find it's worth 20-40% more than you paid for it (if the last 20 years of appreciation history holds true. Over the last 20 years I've owned three airplanes not including my 170. I had a total of $75K invested in them. I flew each of them about 6 years/600 hours each before I sold them. After deducting their purchase price, their total maintenance (including hangar/tie-down and insurance, but not including fuel) I still cleared almost another $70K (with which I bought my 170 and built a hangar for it.)
My friends mostly thought I was crazy when I paid as much as I did for my 53 170B. The year was 1999 and the average price for a 170 ranged from $25K-$35K that year. I paid about 30% more than that, and most of my friends really had a laugh (they thought) on me. But the airplane was a total restoration, truly resembling a brand-NEW Cessna 170B (if such a thing ever existed....then this airplane was it.)
I've flown it about 600 hours now and my most expensive annual was $375 including the complete set of new spark plugs that year (about $150 worth.) Last year's annual was $125. (To be fair, I did all the opening up, lubrication, and closing up, and assisted with other inspection details, and the inspection was performed in my hangar...not at a commercial shop somewhere... by an "acquaintance"...but not a "dear friend"....he was the same inspector who always did my Baron and my Cessna 206 when he worked at the commercial shop before his retirement.)
I attribute it's low annual maintenance costs to the aircraft's excellent condition when I bought it 6 years ago. (On the average, I've spent about $200 additionally to it's inspection costs for brakes, tires, etc.) I'm certain that had I not been willing to spend the little "extra" during purchase, that I would have spent many hundreds if not thousands on it in regular and additional maintenance in the meanwhile....and not had as reliable an airplane (and therefore a potiential on-going conversation with the partner (my wife) about it's usefulness and it's membership-in-the-family-status on a regular basis. As it is, it's been a pleasure to own and fly as opposed to being seen as a constant drain-on-pocketbook. Wife is happy = I am happy.
Give extra credit to an airplane that has new exhausts, wiring, plumbing, engine, interior, glass.... and give less credit to an airplane that has new paint, prop, owner, and logbooks. (Orginal/long-term owner and original logbooks are a big plus. Old exhausts may require replacement soon to the tune of $1500 PLUS!... and in the meantime are a safety consideration...but is rarely thought of until the new owner gets it home and smells something funny when the cabin heat is turned on this winter.) All new glass can be another un-thought-of item until flying into the sun and seeing all those "stars" from the crazing. Old interiors, and old wiring is.....well...old. And potentially expensive and long-term down-time.
Above all ... is CORROSION. (Think CANCER! It will lurk in hidden places and when it finally rears it's ugly head it's dangerous, expensive, and un-settling. Corrosion NEVER gets better except by replacement of the corroded parts. And depending upon exactly where those parts are (i.e. wing attach blocks, spar carry thru's, cabin overheads, wing structure), the repair can cost as much as the airplane's total value. Treatment schemes are merely stop-gap measures. The corrosion is still there and the weakness still exists. The simple way to avoid this problem is to INSPECT for it during a pre-buy inspection by utilizing an ANNUAL INSPECTION by a reputable shop for your pre-buy. Don't scrimp here. Tell 'em you're LOOKING for corrosion. Money spent on such an inspection at a reputable facility is money well spent. Meanwhile, when the inspection is finished, you have the potential for a whole year's ownership of flying/pleasure before another dreaded annual comes due.
170's are not any more susceptible to the above matters than any other airplane model. If you can find a clean one, you'll LOVE it! (And the best example you can buy will give you the best return on investment when it comes time to reluctantly let it go.)
Welcome to our 170 family!

[zero.one.victor]

Tony, are you sure you want these questions answered? Airplane ownership & flying is not always about the money-- often it doesn't have anything at all to do with the money. You might be better off to buy a good airplane, make the best deal you can, fly it for a year or two, & then see if it's worth it to you.If not, sell it-- you should at least come out even.
If you fly alot, 100 hours a year or more, it will be cheaper to own. If you fly only 50 hours a year or less, cheaper to rent. But you can't rent a 170 or anything similar to it anywhere that I'm aware of.
Fool that I am, I keep tabs on my costs. Over the past 8 years, I've spent right around $60K ( that's right, sixty thousand dollars!) operating,maintaining,repairing & hangaring my 170. That includes an overhaul of the engine & accesories. With about 1400 hours flown, that's a bit less than $43 an hour. If you throw out the $15K cost of the OH work 4 years ago, the per hour cost is only about $32.
1400 hours in 8 years works out to about 175 hours a year. If I flew less, my per hour costs would be higher.Remember, fixed costs (hangar, insurance, inspections, etc) have to be paid whether the airplane sits or flies. So you can't really afford NOT to fly it! This is a good argument to use on your wife.
I spend a lot on my flying, it is about the only thing I splurge on. I've never regretted airplane ownership in spite of the costs. After all, there aren't too many cheap hobbies-- priced boating or snowmobiling or hotrodding lately?
Go for it!

Eric

[N3243A]

After all, there aren't too many cheap hobbies-- priced boating or snowmobiling or hotrodding lately?
Go for it!

Eric

Hey Eric,

Actually, with what you have spent in the last eight years on aviation, you could buy a new snowmobile at the beginning of every season, then just throw it away come spring to save on storage and maintenance!

Bruce

[zero.one.victor]

My costs work out to about $7500 a year-- hell, I know people who probably spend that much (or more) just at the bar!

[k0al]

Tony,

The FIRST thing you do is to join the International Cessna 170 Association!!

Contact me via private e mail k0al@mchsi.com as I am a ham also as well as a 170 owner.

73,

Al, K0AL

[PilotMikeTX]

Tell your wife it is an investment in a classic aircraft that will appreciate in value every year..... works for me!!

I used that one on my wife too. One of these days they're gonna figure it out.