I was finally able to make the 8 hour drive on Thursday to southwest MN to look at the plane that I was hoping would become my pride and joy. I knew it needed some cosmetic attention but expected it to be mechanically sound as the annual had just been done in October. I was sure disappointed when I found it had some major issues which the owner didn’t mention during our communications but obviously knew about and attempted to down play when I pointed them out to him. I learned more about the 170 from having spent the time looking through ever inspection hole but cannot believe the sellers lack of integrity.
On the upside, during the trip I came across two well kept snow machines for sale and made a deal to bring them home next Friday. The owner had obviously taken great pride in maintaining his machines and was a real pleasure to deal with. I just wish the plane had been owned and maintained by this individual. If that had been the case I’m sure I’d be telling you all about my new plane instead of crying the blues about my shopping experience!
Hope you all have a very merry Christmas!
Greg
Bad Shopping Experience
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
a familiar story.
i am always amazed at some people's gall,
making forward sounding statements,
willing to gamble their integrity,
knowing that they will incur the wrath of
a few knowledgable buyers,
because there will always be an uninformed sucker out there!!
who cares if their name is 'mud'
if they get the price their asking!!
i wheel and deal in wwii jeeps alot,
and this happens all to frequently.
it really pays to go have a carefull look.
iowa
i am always amazed at some people's gall,
making forward sounding statements,
willing to gamble their integrity,
knowing that they will incur the wrath of
a few knowledgable buyers,
because there will always be an uninformed sucker out there!!
who cares if their name is 'mud'
if they get the price their asking!!
i wheel and deal in wwii jeeps alot,
and this happens all to frequently.
it really pays to go have a carefull look.
iowa
1951 170A 1468D SN 20051
1942 L-4B 2764C USAAC 43-572 (9433)
AME #17747
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flat country pilot
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:46 pm
Greg,
I had the same experience on a few planes. The seller misrepresenting himself and the plane. Just coincidence but the last one was in Mn.
My first clue on that plane was that he had told me the glass was in very good condition. He didn't think I would see the stop drilled crack in the windshield? It may be airworthy, but please tell me these things before I drive 600 miles to look at an airplane. Everything went down hill from there.
I think midtime planes are the hardest to buy. We decided, my wife and I, to buy either a basketcase and completely go through it, or a plane that someone had recently gone through. Recently being a year or two. We ended up with the latter and are very happy.
Be careful.
Bill
I had the same experience on a few planes. The seller misrepresenting himself and the plane. Just coincidence but the last one was in Mn.
My first clue on that plane was that he had told me the glass was in very good condition. He didn't think I would see the stop drilled crack in the windshield? It may be airworthy, but please tell me these things before I drive 600 miles to look at an airplane. Everything went down hill from there.
I think midtime planes are the hardest to buy. We decided, my wife and I, to buy either a basketcase and completely go through it, or a plane that someone had recently gone through. Recently being a year or two. We ended up with the latter and are very happy.
Be careful.
Bill
Flat Country Pilot
Farm Field PVT
54 C170B
Farm Field PVT
54 C170B
Well here's one for you!
I spent 2 1/2 years chasing parts to convert a straight-tail to a tail wheel. Bid on many insurance wrecks, just to be out-bid! The cost of this was really getting out of control! And then, on-line in trade-a-plane, a coverted '56 172 came by at a price that was well below what I'd been looking for! Called and found out there were 40 calls already on that bird, but nobody would put a nickel on it until they saw it. I figured the parts alone would get my money back if it was a pile of junk. I wired him $1000 sight unseen. But then he wanted the rest by Monday noon (this was Monday 9 AM) because he had 3 people ready with cash. Still, no idea what it looked like. Desperate times! I sent the money...
My wife and I were glued to the computer when the pics came that afternoon. We almost fell over backwards... it was beautiful! Had been on a farm in a barn for 23 years! Just flown around his property till he could no longer pass his medical. Had it ferried from the Mid West to New England after an annual, and been flying it ever since!!!
So many horror stories out there, but there are some good ones too!
I spent 2 1/2 years chasing parts to convert a straight-tail to a tail wheel. Bid on many insurance wrecks, just to be out-bid! The cost of this was really getting out of control! And then, on-line in trade-a-plane, a coverted '56 172 came by at a price that was well below what I'd been looking for! Called and found out there were 40 calls already on that bird, but nobody would put a nickel on it until they saw it. I figured the parts alone would get my money back if it was a pile of junk. I wired him $1000 sight unseen. But then he wanted the rest by Monday noon (this was Monday 9 AM) because he had 3 people ready with cash. Still, no idea what it looked like. Desperate times! I sent the money...
My wife and I were glued to the computer when the pics came that afternoon. We almost fell over backwards... it was beautiful! Had been on a farm in a barn for 23 years! Just flown around his property till he could no longer pass his medical. Had it ferried from the Mid West to New England after an annual, and been flying it ever since!!!
So many horror stories out there, but there are some good ones too!
Joe Craig
'56 C172 Taildragger N6915A
'46 Aeronca Champ N65HM
'56 C172 Taildragger N6915A
'46 Aeronca Champ N65HM
The best values really do tend to be the planes in the higher end of the price range. I agree that a recently restored plane is really best. Basket cases generally are poor values because no matter how cheap you will spend more then the plane will ever be worth fixing it up. I took a mid time plane in good condition restored it. The restoration cost me way more than I planned to spend but I got one of the nices ragwings in the country out of my efforts. That said these planes are all now over 50 years old and they will never be new again. Most all have little cracks in the cowling or dings here and there. Many of the old timers were not paper work perfectionists so most of them have some old log entries that are less than we would like. Bill K
Polished 48 170 Cat 22 JD 620 & Pug
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flat country pilot
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:46 pm
Bill K,
We decided it would cost us less to put $40K into a $15 to $20K basketcase than $40K into a $35 to $40K midtime plane. As it turned out we bought one someone else had already done.
It's hard to put a value on a 50 plus year old plane. I believe they are worth what the buyer will pay, not how much money is put into them. If these planes were worth what is put into them they would sell for $100 grand plus.
Greg, Just be careful, there are alot of pirates out there. But I believe there are more good people than pirates.
Most of us have budgets to live by and the dollars can come hard. Sometimes we write the check and look the other way or talk to our banker. If you get buyers remorse or have second thoughts afterward, go fly the plane, its very comforting.
Bill
Bill K, I am also a Bill K but I'll stick to Bill
The best thing is now you know exactly what you have for a plane.I took a mid time plane in good condition restored it
We decided it would cost us less to put $40K into a $15 to $20K basketcase than $40K into a $35 to $40K midtime plane. As it turned out we bought one someone else had already done.
It's hard to put a value on a 50 plus year old plane. I believe they are worth what the buyer will pay, not how much money is put into them. If these planes were worth what is put into them they would sell for $100 grand plus.
Greg, Just be careful, there are alot of pirates out there. But I believe there are more good people than pirates.
Most of us have budgets to live by and the dollars can come hard. Sometimes we write the check and look the other way or talk to our banker. If you get buyers remorse or have second thoughts afterward, go fly the plane, its very comforting.
Bill
Bill K, I am also a Bill K but I'll stick to Bill
Flat Country Pilot
Farm Field PVT
54 C170B
Farm Field PVT
54 C170B
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john rogers
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:32 am
Bad Shopping Experience
Greg,
Do not give up! There are a lot of good 170's that will be put on the market for what ever reason. You need to be able to go look at them timely and be willing to walk a way from those that do not meet your standards.
When I was searching for my current 170 which took me well over a year to find, I found if I took my time and waited to go and look at what appeared to be good ones priced at upper end of the (fair) market they were gone in a hart beat. Then there was the one that I thought was going to be giving to me before I could walk a way.
I was looking for a 170 that I could fly without any repairs or upgrades. I wanted any upgrades or changes for my new 170 to be on a want list not a need to list.
I looked at 170's for the most part that were owned by 170 lovers. My search was a favorable experience. I purchased a good 170 from an owner that wanted a airplane that would haul more than the 170. I have since made several trips to Sun N Fun with him and the previous owner. They have became good friends.
The previous owner purchased a Maule. After several years he still calls me to tell me he sold me the best airplane that he ever owned.
Good luck - Keep Searching.
Merry Christmas
John
Do not give up! There are a lot of good 170's that will be put on the market for what ever reason. You need to be able to go look at them timely and be willing to walk a way from those that do not meet your standards.
When I was searching for my current 170 which took me well over a year to find, I found if I took my time and waited to go and look at what appeared to be good ones priced at upper end of the (fair) market they were gone in a hart beat. Then there was the one that I thought was going to be giving to me before I could walk a way.
I was looking for a 170 that I could fly without any repairs or upgrades. I wanted any upgrades or changes for my new 170 to be on a want list not a need to list.
I looked at 170's for the most part that were owned by 170 lovers. My search was a favorable experience. I purchased a good 170 from an owner that wanted a airplane that would haul more than the 170. I have since made several trips to Sun N Fun with him and the previous owner. They have became good friends.
The previous owner purchased a Maule. After several years he still calls me to tell me he sold me the best airplane that he ever owned.
Good luck - Keep Searching.
Merry Christmas
John
Last edited by john rogers on Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
One option to consider is a broker who knows 170's. If you are short on time, and or experience, a broker that you trust can do all of the leg work for you. They also seem to be able to find airplanes for sale in out of way places that the normal buyer would never know about.
Good luck on your search, don't give up.
Good luck on your search, don't give up.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
It's always my advice to get the seller to bring the plane to you for inspection. They won't all do it. Either they know their plane will not pass muster and they'll have wasted their trip and money,... or they are selling because they've lost their medical and don't want someone else flying their plane.
I understand those kind of issues... but... if YOU spend YOUR money chasing all over the country looking at planes, you'll WASTE a lot of your purchase-dollars looking at junk!
About 15 years ago a friend was looking for a 170 and found one listed in TAP in eastern GA. He and I and a AP/IA friend jumped in the AP/IA's 182 and flew to GA to look at it...but only AFTER we'd talked to two other folks on that airport, one of the the local deputy sheriff, who described the 170 as "...beautiful! Really well-cared for." He stated he knew the plane well because it was based beside his own Cherokee in the same hangar.
Bob spent over $1,000 on fuel, hotel, etc. going to look at that airplane. When we got to the airport, we saw it sitting out there on the ramp. When we got within about 30 feet of it, we could see all the rusty hardware and runs in the paint, that looked as if Sears latex had been applied with a roller and paper towels! The spark plugs were so encrusted with rust they looked like salt-water corrosion on pier hardware in a fishing fleet.
Our mechanic, Gary, threatened to notify the authorities when he saw some of the automotive hardware on the airplane... but the owner wanted to know "zactly whut's rong with et?" Gary told him, "I don't have time to teach school." and we left. $1000 thrown away by an eager buyer who thought he'd done his homework.
(Annual Inspection/travel expenses paid: Tell the seller you will buy the plan at the agreed price, and pay his travel/transport expenses if the airplane is "as represented", and that you intend to perform an annual inspection on his plane as a pre-buy. That'll let him know right away to reveal any discrepancies he knows about it because they're about to be discovered. He'll either show up in a pretty good airplane, he'll find a reason to avoid you as a potential buyer, or he's an unknowlegeable idiot regarding his plane....and he'll have wasted his money, not yours.) Otherwise, be very stingy about spending money travelling around to see planes you are hopeful about.
I understand those kind of issues... but... if YOU spend YOUR money chasing all over the country looking at planes, you'll WASTE a lot of your purchase-dollars looking at junk!
About 15 years ago a friend was looking for a 170 and found one listed in TAP in eastern GA. He and I and a AP/IA friend jumped in the AP/IA's 182 and flew to GA to look at it...but only AFTER we'd talked to two other folks on that airport, one of the the local deputy sheriff, who described the 170 as "...beautiful! Really well-cared for." He stated he knew the plane well because it was based beside his own Cherokee in the same hangar.
Bob spent over $1,000 on fuel, hotel, etc. going to look at that airplane. When we got to the airport, we saw it sitting out there on the ramp. When we got within about 30 feet of it, we could see all the rusty hardware and runs in the paint, that looked as if Sears latex had been applied with a roller and paper towels! The spark plugs were so encrusted with rust they looked like salt-water corrosion on pier hardware in a fishing fleet.
Our mechanic, Gary, threatened to notify the authorities when he saw some of the automotive hardware on the airplane... but the owner wanted to know "zactly whut's rong with et?" Gary told him, "I don't have time to teach school." and we left. $1000 thrown away by an eager buyer who thought he'd done his homework.
(Annual Inspection/travel expenses paid: Tell the seller you will buy the plan at the agreed price, and pay his travel/transport expenses if the airplane is "as represented", and that you intend to perform an annual inspection on his plane as a pre-buy. That'll let him know right away to reveal any discrepancies he knows about it because they're about to be discovered. He'll either show up in a pretty good airplane, he'll find a reason to avoid you as a potential buyer, or he's an unknowlegeable idiot regarding his plane....and he'll have wasted his money, not yours.) Otherwise, be very stingy about spending money travelling around to see planes you are hopeful about.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
I was wondering the same. I think MAYBE some early 172's had a option for zinc chromate inside where as no 170's came with it??? I don't know nor do I think it matters. I don't care if the whole airplane was rebuilt as long as it is legit and in good conditon, come on these planes are 50 plus years old.blueldr wrote:4stripes,
How did you determine that the wings on the 170 were from a 172?
Fuel tanks??? Year model??? I"m curious. I thoufgt the early 172s were the same.
Greg,
In my very humble opinion, have a dollar amount in mind that you want to spend and find a 170 in that price range. I agree with “cfiatzph†who cares if the whole plane was rebuilt, as long as it was done correctly. If they use factory parts it should be the same as factory. The parts had to be assembled to build the plane in the first place. Is the quality really that much better at the factory? In my very short time in aviation I have seen some very poor quality that came from the factory.
I look at it this way, if you want a 170 for an investment, find the nicest 170 you can and buy it. If you want one that you will fly for the next 20 years and have no intentions of selling, find one in your price range, (of course pay the least amount as possible) in good condition, and buy it. Work on it when needed, give it some tender loving care, and have a great time with it. I do not need the prettiest 170, or the newest engine or the nicest interior on the airport. I want my plane to be in good mechanical condition and reliable with my family in it.
I paid 26K for my 170 a year ago. I have since, put a Horton STOL Kit on it, did a complete top end, completely cleaned (inside and out) the entire airplane. I did all the mechanic work myself with the assistance of a great mechanic at my local airport. I feel I got a great deal on my plane. I got a good price, I was able to put the STOL Kit on myself and learn a lot about the plane. I did the top end myself also and learned a great deal about the engine. I was also able to see what shape the plane was really in, not just what a pre-buy annual would show me. And the best part is I have flown over 130 hours in the 170 last year. I have taken it into some grass and dirt Mt. strips.
Planes are meant to be flow not sit in a hangar and look pretty. I know my 170 is not the nicest out there. But I have had several people at different airports come up to me and say, “That is a nice 170.†I have had four people offer me more than what I paid for it while I was fueling it.
I hope you find what fits your needs and makes you happy.
Wayne
In my very humble opinion, have a dollar amount in mind that you want to spend and find a 170 in that price range. I agree with “cfiatzph†who cares if the whole plane was rebuilt, as long as it was done correctly. If they use factory parts it should be the same as factory. The parts had to be assembled to build the plane in the first place. Is the quality really that much better at the factory? In my very short time in aviation I have seen some very poor quality that came from the factory.
I look at it this way, if you want a 170 for an investment, find the nicest 170 you can and buy it. If you want one that you will fly for the next 20 years and have no intentions of selling, find one in your price range, (of course pay the least amount as possible) in good condition, and buy it. Work on it when needed, give it some tender loving care, and have a great time with it. I do not need the prettiest 170, or the newest engine or the nicest interior on the airport. I want my plane to be in good mechanical condition and reliable with my family in it.
I paid 26K for my 170 a year ago. I have since, put a Horton STOL Kit on it, did a complete top end, completely cleaned (inside and out) the entire airplane. I did all the mechanic work myself with the assistance of a great mechanic at my local airport. I feel I got a great deal on my plane. I got a good price, I was able to put the STOL Kit on myself and learn a lot about the plane. I did the top end myself also and learned a great deal about the engine. I was also able to see what shape the plane was really in, not just what a pre-buy annual would show me. And the best part is I have flown over 130 hours in the 170 last year. I have taken it into some grass and dirt Mt. strips.
Planes are meant to be flow not sit in a hangar and look pretty. I know my 170 is not the nicest out there. But I have had several people at different airports come up to me and say, “That is a nice 170.†I have had four people offer me more than what I paid for it while I was fueling it.
I hope you find what fits your needs and makes you happy.
Wayne
God forbid we should ever be twenty years without a rebellion. ***Thomas Jefferson***
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MeeksDigital
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:52 am
i had a very similar experience looking at a 170 in oklahoma. it is on controller.com, polished and blue... just a word of advice... not the plane you want to buy.
you'll find something sooner or later... there are tons of great airplanes out there. i just found my pride and joy recently, and brought her back from massachusetts.
you'll find something sooner or later... there are tons of great airplanes out there. i just found my pride and joy recently, and brought her back from massachusetts.
-Trevor Meeks
Filmmaker http://www.meeksdigitalstudios.com
Photographer http://www.meeksdigital.com
1950 Cessna 170A N5LP, Horton STOL, 180 Gear
Filmmaker http://www.meeksdigitalstudios.com
Photographer http://www.meeksdigital.com
1950 Cessna 170A N5LP, Horton STOL, 180 Gear