Annual inspection and options

[gordonbunting]

I know this was discussed a little in Feb but looking at my first annual inspection squawk list I'm wondering what the options are. Once you have an annual inspection and everything is listed as required for continued airworthiness how do you go about getting a second opinion or escaping the shop that gave you the annual. For your reading enjoyment I'll try to post my annual estimate for N2354D. As a side note, the only significant thing that I'm worried about is the belly skin crack and I don't know what they are going to do in 3 hrs but my guess is that is will involve drilling 1 stop hole that probably is not the appropriate repair in the first place.
So it goes. Thanks,
Gordon

[doug8082a]

An annual inspection expires on the last day of the month it is due. You didn't say when your annual was due, but if it is March, then you are still legal to fly it until March 31.

Just looking at the squawk list quickly I'd say he's milking it.... one hour to replace a ground wire? two hours to replace a window hinge? an hour and a half to replace safety wire on the prop??? and the items listed as rusty and needing cleaning and paint I wouldn't consider an airworthiness issue... if they are corroded enough to be an airworthiness issue, then they require repair and/or replacement... not paint .

If you are past your annual date (like it was due last month) then get a ferry permit and get it out of there. Aside from that I have no strong opinion on the subject...

[c170b53]

If the plane has been neglected for sometime, any classic brought to a modern shop will cost a sum of money. Looking at the work order, it looks and sounds very professional($$$$$). But I sense trouble in a few areas and a few spots where your going to be paying a few dollars unless the estimate is really an estimate. A few alarm bells for me are; low rudder cable tension. Yeah that would be normal, unless something is worn or broken and the cables are dragging on the floor. The cables are rigged so the pedals fall into the specified distance dimension from the firewall with the rudder return springs providing a bit of cable tension but the cables by themselves by system design have low tension. Worn lower brake cylinder attach points, yes a common problem as are worn pedal assemblies but its going to take alot longer than 2 hours if they are really worn. What the half hour charge for the flap cables being corroded ? I'm guessing of the top of my head, but a new set of flap cables will run about 250 for the wings and 200 for the fuselage in parts and I would take more than a 1/2 day to do it once access is made available. There's quite a few items in my opinion resemble the corroded cable estimate which is not an estimate but is in reality the tip of an iceberg. Its hard to comment not having seen the plane but it sounds like they may not want to work on it and if they do they'll make it worthwhile. Sounds like you need a more reasonable shop rate with someone who is little more familiar with the breed. Imagine $35 to screw on two C/B retaining nuts, they must be really hard to get to. I work on my own plane (for therapy) so it's entirely possible that I have no clue as to what things cost. Looking at your estimate I didn't realize that I was so valuable and as far as I can tell neither has anyone else. Guess I'll have to keep on buying my lotto tickets.

[ak2711c]

That guy is way out of line. Get your plane out of there. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I charged you even half what he is quoting. Some of the examples have already been mentioned. Another one that jumped out at me was 1.5 hours to time the mags. Should take 5 to 10 minutes. Years ago when I was originally getting my A&P I was taking my oral and practical portion of the test. One of the things that we had to be able to do to pass is pick up a mag off the bench and install it on the plane and time it in under 5 minutes. Granted the engine I had to do it on was an O-470 so the mags are a little easier to get at but still. Also his flat rate fee for the annual is pretty high in my opinion too. Maybe I just need to raise my rates.
Shawn

[Bill Hart]

Take a look at what the guy has in his hangar. Is he doing a lot of work on corporate jets or shiny new plastic airplanes? My guess is he does. This may be just his way of saying he doesn’t want/need your business. Like others have said you need to find someone who works on older airplanes and is familiar with 170’s.

As for your question about how to get it out of his hangar. Has the annual been completed? Have you told him you want another opinion? You may just need to pay him for his time and be on your way if the annual is not past due. If he insist and probably will, let him sign it off as un-airworthy. This will be best for both of you, you will then need to get a ferry permit for a one time flight to another shop. Then go interview a few shops and ask other owners in your area who they use. You need to make sure before you select a new shop that they are the ones you want to use as the new mechanic will have to come out and inspect the airplane for the ferry permit before you fly it to the new shop. This should be no big deal but it will cost you and the FAA my suspect you are IA shopping if you request more that one ferry permit.

[Brad Brady]

Shawn I agree with you! How about $15.00 for a Bendix switch test? I also agree with Bill.....maby they don't want the work.

[wingnut]

These Flight Shop guys are backwards on alot of things. I've never heard of a shop charging extra for visual or functional check AD's. There are several items that they consider to be airworthiness issues that aren't. And they say the carb heat valve not closing is left to your discretion. I disagree on this; this valve would also serve as a firewall shutoff in the event you develope an exhaust leak. It's important that it works as advertised. The fact that they don't tell what their corrective action for each discrepancy is going to be, and don't list the part number for replacement parts, and list low labor cost for what seems to be the more serious issues and high prices for miscellaneous work tells me there guessing. This estimate does not present an accurate nor intellegent approach to the work that needs to be done. I'd find another shop even it ment paying them full price for the annual.

[blueldr]

That shops estimate has to be one of he worst rip offs I've ever seen.

[HA]

some of the stuff they list should already be included in their annual flat rate (AD inspections and general servicing needed to inspect things). so some of those little charges should already be included, like the ignition switch inspection for instance. call their bluff on that stuff.

I would be worried about all the skin cracks in the tail surfaces and aileron, obviously they just intend to do a lot of stop drilling but at some point you will have someone tell you that those surfaces need new skins - I can't tell without looking at them, just be ready.

on the flap cable thing and the worn master cylinder attach points, they do warn you that additional parts and labor may be required, you can take that as "yes it will cost extra".

you already got lots of opinions on the wing rib/stringer fiasco. I wouldn't worry about them unless there is deformation of the rib or twisting of the stringers resulting, then something (ribs, skin) will crack eventually. the ribs could be relieved in that case (widen the hole so things don't hit).

the fuselage skin crack estimate is a little baffling, what do they intend to do for 3 hrs? probably put a scab patch over it, did it get inspected enough to determine that there was no damage to the internal structure? could be a big can of worms.

the prop safety wire thing is padded, even though .041 safety wire is a PITA it doesn't take that long. spinner had to come on and off as part of the inspection anyway.

if the mags need to be retimed then the gaskets will likely shred if they were to just loosen the nuts and twist the mags, so it appears that they are probably taking the time to remove the mags, clean up the surfaces, and reinstall with new gaskets. ask to be sure. that's the proper way to do it, otherwise you'll have oil leaks.

ditto the rusty elevator trim rod etc. being rusty, cheaper to fix the rust (corrosion) now than to wait until the parts are unairworthy and unsafe later.

other than those concerns, I don't see a lot out of line here. I know that some of the guys here will disagree but they've had their planes for awhile, and have established relationships at their shops. the first annual of an airplane in a new (to that airplane) shop is always more expensive, as the new inspector finds stuff that he doesn't like that the previous guy blew off. If they were just to wash it and charge you the flat rate ('flew in, it'll fly out") you'd get nothing for your money, and no additional safety.

get them to be specific on those potential big-ticket items, ask them just what their "flat rate" actually includes, it's an interactive process. you've demonstrated that you want to be involved by searching for opinions here, so you know you can help your cause with your shop as well now that you have some other opinions (admittedly, based on our feelings and a couple pictures only though). later annuals will be smoother like I said before, once you establish the ground rules.

[n3437d]

I just had my annual completed 2/29 - was joking with AI and told him "guess I won't be seeing you for four more years" I just got a Leap Day Annual!!!

All kidding aside I have a wonderful AI on the field and he will let owner assist. I opened and closed and did all I could legally do - Total Charge was $400. This included a few parts and labor.

On the way back to my hangar got to chatting with hangar mate who owns a Grumann Tiger and we were dicussing a mutual friend who also owns a Grumann - She just got a call from the Aviation shop across the hills in CA and was told her annual was $7,000 - I'm not sure if she is still alive after that call - I will check with her to find out exactly how the $7k was developed.

Joel
N3437D

[FredM]

When you have someone perform an annual inspection you are not obligated in any way to let them perform necessary repairs. Most people do it this way as it is usually more convenient for everyone involved. Most people are under the false impression that the aircraft has to be airworthy for the inspection to be signed off. This is not true at all. If you have a aviation maintenance FAR book please read FAR 43.11 paragraph 5. This gives an alternate sign off for inspections where the aircraft is not found airworthy but the inspection has been completed. Instead of the normal annual sign off it should go like this. " I certify this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with annual inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator". You then do not have to have another annual inspection. You simply have to have the listed discrepancies corrected and you are good for another year. You will have to ferry it somewhere else to have the discrepancies fixed even if the annual wasn't due because you have known conditions that render the aircraft unairworthy. I would strongly recommend you explain the situation to the shop you intend to use ahead of time. I would hate to see your plane ferried to another shop only to have them tell you the same thing as the last shop. Good luck

[n2582d]

Gordon,

Here are a couple of things that caught my attention.

Job #4. Complience with service bulletins, even "mandatory service bulletins", are not required for airworthiness by the FAA unless they are part of an airworthiness directives (AD). SEB 07-5 has been superceded by SEB 07-5R1. It calls for installing a seat belt arrangement to the pilot's seat to keep the seat from accidently slipping back if the seat pin disengages. Search this forum for more information on it. As I recall this seatbelt affair got a lukewarm review at best. The best part about it is the part is free as is the installation if done at a Cessna Service Center. A 170 I flew years ago had a rope or cable attached to a front leg of the pilot's seat. The other end of the rope/cable had a clip on it. Once the pilot slid his seat forward he fastened the clip to a D ring which was mounted to the floor in front of the seat. A cheap, light, and simple solution.

Job #6. Low rudder cable tension? Unlikely, unless a rudder return spring is broken or missing. A lot of Cessnas have rudder cables that in effect form a continuous loop by having a carry thru cable betweent the rudder torque tubes. On this layout it is possible to have tension on the cables-the Cessna manual calls for 20-40 lbs. The 170 uses brake and rudder return springs to keep tension on the rudder cables. (See fig. 60-3 and 60-4.) I am not aware of any specific tension to tighten the 170 rudder cable turnbuckles to. The 170 Owners Manual says, "with the rudder in neutral position, tighten turnbuckles until rudder pedals are neutral, 6" aft of the firewall, measuring to the hingeline of the brake pedal."

Job #17. This is a common problem on Cessnas. See fig. 60-25 and 60-26. These aluminum parts were quite mangled on my project. Apparently the new ones, p/n 0411549 and 0411550 are made from steel now. It might be a good idea, when you mount them, to use large area washers in front of the nuts. There have been some SDR's of cracking on the mounting flange--large area washers would help spread the load. While in the area have the mechanic closely inspect the flanges where the rudder torque tube bearing blocks attach. It is another area prone to cracking.

Job #24. The 100 Series Cessna Service Manual http://www.micro-tools.com/pdf/cessna/1 ... _pre63.pdf gives instructions on how to install nylon plug buttons, p/n S-1093-1, on top of the flaps to prevent the flaps from chaffing on the trailing edge of the wing. See pg. 7-7 paragraph 7-18.

[gordonbunting]

Thank you everyone who has posted comments and suggestions. Getting it worked out. Appreciate all the good thoughts.
Take care,
Gordon

[Jr.CubBuilder]

Gordon I feel your pain, I'm in the same situation myself.

[MoonlightVFR]

To Gordon


I feel your frustration and pain. I have been in similar situation several times over 30 years.

You have a great benefit in this forum. Think of how you would feel if you were not backed by the knowledge database
of all these great 170 pilots.


A few tips that I would like to add. It is always important to give the shop a written letter but make it in a informal memo style . You are buying an inspection, period!

An aircraft is only as valuable as its paperwork. I think it is safer to show the shop the aircraft logs, etc but then leave attested paper copies for them to work with. Payment occurs at a set down meeting w shop it only takes 5-10 minutes to have actual log books signed and payment proffered. It is an equitable exchange. Be sure to keep up with the wereabouts of your weight and balance document. It does not sound like your current shop has actually stepped over the line, just gave you the shocking estimate.


What is stepping over the line? It is when an owner visits the shop and discovers the the tailwheel REMOVED and disassembled on a bench PLUS there is an unknown mechanic removing a cylinder. Inspection does not require disassembly. Unwarranted and unauthorized disassemby is a legal issue. This is the reason for a paper document from the owner.

I wish the AI/ AP made more money. At least as much as the mech that works on my autos.


REgards