Rear Seat Removal

[ghostflyer]

Well , a couple of years ago we were ramped checked at oshkosh , and I asked the FAA ( gentleman ) had he read the TCDS A799 regarding the removal of the back seat out of a cessna 170 B . Err No he said , plus it's MY belief that the removal is not a maintenance issue. It's a optional configuration for flight covered by the the TCDS. The back seat had been removed for all our camping gear and survival gear. ( liquid rations and ice ) he then left us alone , no further inspections or questions .

[jrenwick]

What part of the TCDS are you thinking of?

[mit]

I think this horse is Dead!

[bagarre]

This, along with the vast majority of other long running threads, all come down to the opinion of the person and what maintenance rating they have.

If you remove the back seat on a log entry and the FAA guy is fine with that - everything is good.
If you remove the back seat on a log entry and the FAA guy is NOT fine with that - you have an issue.

Even if 100 FAA guys before THIS FAA guy had no problem with it and the plane has been successfully flying for 30 years with out the back seat, you can still have an issue.

Because it's all up to the opinion of the person standing in front of you and how much he wants to push the issue.

[voorheesh]

I am wondering why this issue is still problematic. The comment that 100 FAA guys might have a problem and the next 100 would not have a problem doesn't make any sense to me with respect to the rear seat of a Cessna 170 installed or not. At least a year ago, I coordinated an official FAA memorandum on this subject with the Los Angeles Aircraft Certification Office. It was accomplished with assistance of the Small Aircraft Directorate and Office of Cabin Safety. This memorandum states in no uncertain terms that an owner of a Cessna 170 can install and remove a seat[/color] without any consequences to the airworthiness, crash worthiness, or evacuation capability of the aircraft. There is no approval required. Since removal/installation involves maintenance, it must be recorded per Part 43. It meets the Part 43 Appendix A Para C Preventive Maintenance (see para 15), so a private pilot or higher may accomplish it. . INSERTED by gahorn: Actually, No, Harlow. It does not. Your interpretive comment implies that the pilot may perform the rear seat removal for purposes of meeting the "minor alteration" mentioned in the LACO letter. Not correct. Bruce has properly pointed out that this does not meet the requirements of "preventive maintenance" and that it must be performed by a properly certificated A&P. This insert was made 7/19/17 to avoid a new post which would resurrect this long-winded thread. <end>. The weight and balance should be adjusted to account for both configurations and care should be taken for securing cargo or other materials carried. I sent this memorandum to Bruce and I thought he disseminated it to the association. In the highly unlikely event that one of these 100 FAA employees shows up at your aircraft and questions operation with the rear seat removed, show him/her a copy of this memo. I am getting old so maybe I am missing what is going on with this discussion, but please quit holding the FAA responsible for any residual questions on rear seat removal from this aircraft.

[voorheesh]

Sorry guys, went back and saw Bruce's post about the memo. My response was based on comments on page 20 that sounded like this was still an issue so disregard everything I said and enjoy flying!!

[bagarre]

Well after 16 pages on this thread we know have something interesting and concreate to share with everyone thanks to the effort of our own Harlow Voorhees.

Here is an official FAA memorandum from Kevin Hull, Manager. Los Angeles Aircraft Certification Office, ANM-100L prepared by Mauricio Kutller, Senior Engineer, Cabin Safety Branch, ANM-150L that states removal of the rear seat in a Cessna 170 is not a Major Alteration and considered to be a Minor Alteration.

Cessna Rear Seat.pdf

I completely missed that! Will definitely print that out and keep it in the plane.

Next topic, Bullet Spinners on an O-300-D or LED Nav lights?

[mit]

I am wondering why this issue is still problematic. The comment that 100 FAA guys might have a problem and the next 100 would not have a problem doesn't make any sense to me with respect to the rear seat of a Cessna 170 installed or not. At least a year ago, I coordinated an official FAA memorandum on this subject with the Los Angeles Aircraft Certification Office. It was accomplished with assistance of the Small Aircraft Directorate and Office of Cabin Safety. This memorandum states in no uncertain terms that an owner of a Cessna 170 can install and remove a seat without any consequences to the airworthiness, crash worthiness, or evacuation capability of the aircraft. There is no approval required. Since removal/installation involves maintenance, it must be recorded per Part 43. It meets the Part 43 Appendix A Para C Preventive Maintenance (see para 15), so a private pilot or higher may accomplish it. The weight and balance should be adjusted to account for both configurations and care should be taken for securing cargo or other materials carried. I sent this memorandum to Bruce and I thought he disseminated it to the association. In the highly unlikely event that one of these 100 FAA employees shows up at your aircraft and questions operation with the rear seat removed, show him/her a copy of this memo. I am getting old so maybe I am missing what is going on with this discussion, but please quit holding the FAA responsible for any residual questions on rear seat removal from this aircraft.

And since the horse isn't dead, what you got from the FAA is what I said at the beginning of this thread somewhere I do Appreciate the letter you got I printed it out and saved it to the computer for future discussions.

[ghostflyer]

OMG ,it seems I was wrong about the issue of the back seat removal was in the TCDS. For years I was under the impression that it was covered under the TCDS [ Its 14 pages long]. I know I read a document some time ago about back seat removal , flying with out a door , having a stretcher fitted and other niceities . I have seen a stretcher fitted to a 170A many years ago in New Guinea flying out a injured person. Only the pilots seat was fitted. So how legal was this?
Thank goodness my bluff worked at Oshkosh when we were ramped checked. But a question has to be asked what is the real definition of maintenance . Some people remove the carpets , is that maintenance and the head liner? Washing a aircraft due to salt water contamination is maintenance as it is called up by the manufacturer. So the lines in the sand are very blurred. What does Mr Cessna says about this?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

The 170 had a stretcher as an option. In the US you can get approval from the FSDO you operate in to fly your 170 with one door off for sky diving.