Annual inspection and options

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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Paul-WI
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by Paul-WI »

I wish the AI/ AP made more money. At least as much as the mech that works on my autos
Hey - I take offense at that. We need to keep up with our yacht payments, plane payments, exotic car payments as much as the next guy. :D :D :D . Just kidding. I have talked with my AI/AP and thought with what they have to put up with as far as assumed liability everytime they sign off an inspection and told him I thought they should be charging more. I hope that doesn't mean my annual will go up too much next year 8)
Paul
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GAHorn
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by GAHorn »

Virtually ALL the points I noticed have already been ably addressed by our fine fellow members. There is one additional fine point that always irks me: "General freight" or "Miscellaneous" charges that appear on invoices, usually accompanied by some weak explanation about the costs of doing business.

Listen. If you go to the restaraunt, they don't charge for napkins, or dish soap, or the toilet paper in the bathroom. They also don't charge extra for catsup, mustard, salt or pepper. And they don't charge for the freight to get them to the table either.

"Inventory" items are just that.... items for sale, for which the shop will charge the customer and include a healthy mark-up or profit. It is GOUGING when they charge freight on top of that, and it is poor accounting when a shop has "misc. charges" to cover grease, WD-40, hand-soap, and paper towels, etc. I never pay it. When it comes time to settle the bill, it's the last thing I discuss AFTER I've settled all other charges. I tell them very simply that I will not pay what is their ordinary costs of doing business. A few shops get offended. And then they settle down and drop those charges, because they know they haven't a leg to stand on with regard to that sort of gouging.

All in all, I don't know if your shop is actually over-charging you or not. I can't see the flap cables to see how corroded they are. Are they saying they must be replaced? If so, then why have they not priced those parts? Are they saying they only need cleaning and treatment? Make them be specific on what methods they intend to use on those, ... AND the belly-skin/gearbox. I see some serious warning signs with regard to the engine as well.

Lastly, as others have said, you don't have to have the work performed there. The shop you are at has no authority to keep you there, nor to deny you from taking your plane elsewhere after you've paid for whatever work you've already authorized them to perform. I think their flat rate for the annual is high, but perhaps it's in line with the area. Most non-factory (non-Cessna) shops are about $750 for a single engine, fixed gear, fixed-pitch-prop Cessna for the inspection only. Your converted airplane might be another $250, common mat'ls included, oil/filters extra. Plus tax.

Don't get distracted by small things like $7.50 to check the mag switch. Be concerned about big things like the flap cables, gearbox/belly skins, oil leaks (especially the epoxy on the engine fitting....that could be a cracked case, VERY expensive, and the shop is quite correct to have noticed it and require it to be further investigated. Would you say perhaps your "pre-buy" might have been better conducted so as to negotiate the sales price to accomodate condition? (Hint: An ANNUAL inspection as a "pre-buy" is always what I recommend. Not only would a buyer know the actual airworthiness condition of the aircraft, but the first annual would be neither due, nor contain so many surprises.)

Don't be afraid to move your aircraft.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
gordonbunting
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by gordonbunting »

Thanks George. All good points. As a first airplane purchase and first annual it has all been a learning experience which will no doubt improve the next airplane purchase and mechanic selection. Most of the squawks we're having done with the shop, still waiting on the rib/stringer repair, corrosion exam/treatment with corrsionX, and bellyskin repair. I'm kinda anxious to see what is under the epoxy on the oil pressure line as well. Was told by the guy who did the pre-purchase that it is common to have a leak there if they run the line a certain way when mounting the engine, could be avoided by a different technique of running the line. It sounded ok when he explained it but seems a little weird now. See what happens.
Thanks again for everyones contributions.
Gordon
Former 170B owner
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flyguy
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by flyguy »

I am going to chime in here with a pretty important thing and I hope it isn't too late.

If you do not wish the FBO or "firm" to do the required "work" on the plane do not let them have the logs to make any entries therein. Two friends of mine had experiences somewhat similar to yours but the first instance, the very aggressive operators put improper entries into the permanent records stating that the customer failed to comply with their inspection and illegally flew the plane to another location for a second opinion and repair. I advised this pilot /owner that this log book entry was not legal and he should sue the ba***rds for messing up the permanent records of his airplane. The truth was that later he asked and I helped him get a ferry permit to take the airplane to another facility for the repairs it really needed to be airworthy. He paid for the Inspection but only that. So the low life operator was just showing his a**.

The other incident was a very up-scale FBO in Baton Rouge that took on a job for another friend's C210. He was having trouble with the gear extension and retraction. After they had the plane for a month they advised him it was ready for him to pickup. I flew him down there and dropped him off. As i neared our home field I contacted him on the radio and asked how the plane felt flying with the gear up? He radioed back that they evidently hadn't fixed it because he was flying "Gear-Down"! After he landed and put the plane in the hangar I had him get his logs out to see what the heck they did that took a month but didn't complete the repair needed. To my surprise, they had made a log book entry as follows
"We could not make the system react to the customer squawk and the customer may fly it to another repair station """at his discretion"""!!!. What a load of crap for a reputable "Authorized Repair Station" to do. I told my friend "if it were me I would "OWN" that place and they would not be able to work on another plane ever again! As a pilot he isn't required to read the logs after an Authorized Repair Station performs work on his plane. It is a good idea but he isn't exactly qualified to read and understand all the ramifications of log book entries.

As it was I got a liquid filled 1500PSI gauge and and some high pressure hoses and fittings and tested the system myself. I found no pressure building up and took the hydraulic pump off. disassembled it and found the chamber gasket split around the chambers. Called a repair place in OKE CITY and in 3 days had a yellow tagged pump in my hand. Installed and bled the system and "Presto" the 210's gear system worked like it should have. That outfit in Baton Rouge could have hit a "Home Run" for my friend bit instead may have put - - at the worst - - his life in danger and at least could have caused damage to his airplane if the manual system failed to work properly or he didn't get the gear manually down and locked.
OLE GAR SEZ - 4 Boats, 4 Planes, 4 houses. I've got to quit collecting!
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GAHorn
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by GAHorn »

Hmmmn. I wonder how many friends present can recall all the times we've seen it said here that "lawyers" are the problem?
Most of the times I've wanted to sue someone, the lawyers talked me out of it.

Ol' Gar has an interesting point regarding aircraft records. An annual inspector needs access to the records in order to accomplish his work. A shop is required by law to "enter into the aircraft records" (logs) any work performed. These activities seem to imply that the logs must be presented to the inpsector/shop in order to accomplish the tasks at hand, and the owner is required to submit the logs.

There are many instances where (quite acceptably, I believe) a "sticky" is placed into the logs of aircraft. An example might be in the case of a blown tire at some remote field. The tire is replaced and a "sticky" is submitted to the owner who places it into the aircraft records when he gets it back home. This probably won't work in the case of an aircraft being submitted for more serious work such as an inspection (which requires the aircraft logs for the inspector to determine past AD compliance.) Otherwise..... if the owner does not submit the aircraft records/logs to the inspector....then the inspector's likely actions are to either refuse to inspect, refuse to approve for return to service, or to perform each and every AD note, etc. as if it had never before been accomplished. (expensive)

A possible solution is to have a complete copy of the records for a "working copy" for the shop, and have the shop submit a "sticky" for the owner's inclusion into the permanent records. Unfortunately, any owner who shows up at a new relationship with a shop with "copies" is unlikely to appear worthy of trust by the shop. The relationship between the owner and the shop is basically one of "trust".

Choose your repair shops carefully based upon their reputation and your personal inspection of their facilities. Meet the prinicipals personally, and look them directly in the eye and be certain you both know what is expected of each other. Get referrals from other owners whom you trust, and who have had similar work performed at that shop. If there is any question as to the work scope or as to the methods of accomplishing repairs, make certain the shop agrees beforehand that no entries will be made into the records without conferral with yourself! (An industry-standard method of dealing with such matters is the "Work Order". In a "Work Order", the shop describes the work to be accomplished, and the owner signs the authorization to perform the work. IMPORTANT: Do not accept/sign Work Orders that are too generic. (Example: Troubleshoot gear problem.) Insist upon accurate descriptions of squawks and the extent of the work authorized. (Example: Gear will not extend except by manual extension. Troubleshoot and advise customer. No repairs until further authorized. Estimate: $150.) Later, another entry to the W.O. would be initialed by the owner "Replace Hyd. Pump, service and rig landing gear. Estimate: $325 plus 3 hours labor." That way the shop is protected, and the owner is protected against arriving at the shop and finding his entire landing gear has been replaced and the shop is about to place a mechanic's lien against the aircraft for $20K. 8O
After a relationship is developed between the owner and the shop, less formal W.O.'s might be appropriate, but in new relationships keep in mind that trust is a two way street. Don't treat them like the shop is made up of crooks.... and don't leave the impression that you've always had arguments with every shop with which you've ever done business. Poor communication is inevitably the first error that has occured whenever arguments develop.


PS- In the case where an inappropriate log entry has been made by a shop, do NOT attempt to obliterate or hide the offending entry, as any such attempt will only heighten curiosity and distrust by future owners. Instead, either work it out with the shop to inspire them to write an addendum to their previous entry nullifying it, or make an addendum yourself to the entry that is even-tempered, fair, and worded reasonably so as to explain the offending entry. Do not disparage the shop with the addendum. You don't want a "he said, she said" entry in your logs. You want a fair and accurate statement as to the condition of the aircraft.... not a "better business bureau" comment.
Now, take the aircraft to a reputable shop and get the discrepancy properly repaired and noted.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
Jr.CubBuilder
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by Jr.CubBuilder »

gahorn wrote: Get referrals from other owners whom you trust, and who have had similar work performed at that shop.
This is where I screwed up. Instead of going with someone who was highly touted by several of my plane owner friends I decided to save money by going with a fellow in another town for a pre-purchase inspection (complete waste of money in more ways than one) and my first three annuals. At first I thought it was great that I was getting my annuals done for less than half as much as my older friends, but after three annuals :roll: I began to realize that there was very little "inspection" going on. As I became more familiar with the plane I began noticing things that I really didn't like, it was all simple stuff to. For the third annual which also involved an engine conversion I had a verbal agreement with my old friend/mechanic that we would work on it together (we'd been doing this for the previous two annuals) a date was scheduled and I dropped of the plane. When he said they were ready to start work I arrived to discover someone I didn't know (the new guy) was working on my plane and had already removed my motor. In hind-sight I should have had them stop work right there, put it back together and got a ferry permit to get it home. The job should have taken a month, but I didn't get my plane back for five. When I did get it back it was a nightmare, the first thing I noticed was no safety wire on the wing sumps, then I started digging, no safety wire on the oil filter or a sump plug, cowling not modified per the STC blueprints which eventually destroyed my entire upper cowling. Everywhere I looked the work was shoddy and hap-hazard, baffling not trimmed correctly ate holes in parts of the cowling, the nose-bowl was/is on crooked, and the first weight and balance was so far off it was flat impossible it showed the CG moving forward 16.5 inches, outside the forward limit empty but the plane got forty pounds lighter (?!) just crunching the numbers it would have taken about 400lbs extra on the nose to come up with those numbers. That wasn't nearly all of it, I've spent the last year and a half fixing things and I think I've finally got all the critical stuff.

Still when I took it to my new mechanic (the expensive guy that my friends recommended) he found so much stuff that I nearly despaired. After inspecting it for two days along with the logs he walked me around the plane and showed me previous undocumented repairs that I could see with my own eye after he pointed them out, some serious problems with shoddy rivet work on my seat tracks, gear not shimmed correctly, none of the rigging safety wired in the approved manner, and on it went. The estimate to fix everything he found was the better part of $10K, had I known about even half the stuff he showed me I would never have bought the plane. After I got over my initial shock, we sat down and went over everything on his repair estimate and sorted out what really had to be done to make it airworthy. Now that's it's over for this year I think I got my moneys worth from him, and if nothing else at least the seat rail isn't going to rip out of the floor when I take off 8O the fact that his inspection process involved the simple step of using a mirror and flashlight to look at that made an impression on me, and even more so when he handed me the mirror and I looked myself.
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GAHorn
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by GAHorn »

It's a pity you couldn't get the FAA involved before making all the repairs. They need to see this kind of stuff to suspend the certificates of the previous shop.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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flyguy
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by flyguy »

This is both a comment and at the same time a "question". This evening a friend came down to the house with a problem. He just traded for a pretty nice looking 1965 C172. His problem is at the elevator torque tube attach point inside the right elevator.

This airplane came from Florida sporting a fresh annual and he thought everything was just hunky-dory till he started having a problem with the airplane wanting to turn to the right when he rotated for takeoff. He has been flying this thing for a couple of weeks with this annoying reaction. This evening, after his flight, he just happened to take the trailing edge of the left elevator in his left hand and the grabbed the same place on the right and found that the right elevator isn't following the movement of the torque tube from the other side.

He hustled down here and asked me to come look at the thing and see what the problem is. Yep! Hold the left elevator stationary and the right one moves up and down (freely) 2" either way from neutral! I have never seen this condition in any planes I have ever been around.

Here is my question" Have any of you guys ever found this problem on a 172? I printed out the page out of the Cessna manual but the drawing isn't very clear what the attaching mechanism is at the outer end of the torque tube. Anyone had one of these opened up to the bare bones to know how to fix it or what to expect on further inspection?

My comment is that some mechanic dropped the ball by failing to find this condition during the annual. It may not be as dangerous as a one flap doing an uncommanded retraction but it certainly isn't something one would expect to find after an annual. I guess if the pilot had to really haul back abruptly on the stick it might turn into a dangerous situation.
OLE GAR SEZ - 4 Boats, 4 Planes, 4 houses. I've got to quit collecting!
wingnut
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by wingnut »

Both elevators fasten to a common bellcrank with the same three bolts. The torque tube extends outboard from the bellcrank, into and through the first and second ribs in the elevator. The ribs are riveted to the spar and skins. There are flanges that attach the torque tube to the ribs (imagine a carb airbox flange that the duct clamps to). These flanges are riveted through the torque tube wall, and through the rib web. The rivets going through the flange/tube are very prone to corrosion and may have sheared, allowing the tube to rotate within the flanges.
Also, the flange/rib rivets may have corroded and sheared allowing the flange to rotate on the rib web.
Last possibility is that someone forgot to install the 3 rivets that attach the forward rib flange to the spar, and/or the spar/rib has cracked in that area. If this last one happened you would have to see obvious skin buckling to deflect the elevator +/- 2" from the other one.
Del Lehmann
Mena, Arkansas
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GAHorn
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Re: Annual inspection and options

Post by GAHorn »

I once was asked to fly a friend somewhere in his Baron. His regular pilot (and his CFI) who regularly flew the plane for the last 2 years was out of town.
I showed up an hour before departure and did a preflight. As I ALWAYS DO... I grabbed each elevator at the trailing edges and tested them against each other and ..... HOLY COW.... they had a huge disconnect between them. They operated almost completely independently of each other. There is one AN4 bolt which connects the two and it was not even FINGER tight.... it had been stuck thru the connection and the nut threaded on about 3 or 4 threads. The nut wasn't anywhere near the bottom even...about 1/2" of bolt shank was exposed. 8O It had paint on it. (The airplane had been painted 3 years earlier and the paint shop had never properly fastened the two elevators to each other. In a Baron, if that bolt had snapped or simply fallen out as the nut fell off, then complete elevator control would have been lost.)

The regular pilot said that in retrospect, he'd always felt that the airplane was a "bit squirrely" at rotation and during landing flares. He never checked elevators against each other.

I once flew a state of Texas Cessna 402 that would suddenly depart the trimmed altitude and the yoke felt a slight "bump" as it did so. That airplane has a tapered pin that is snugged thru the torque tubes. The pin and it's hole were both "wallowed" out and poorly fitted. It was the FIRST time I'd ever experienced such a failure, and is the reason I have always checked such things on pre-flights since. It is why I caught the Baron problem.

I hope everyone is now aware of this possibly serious problem and will now check elevator integrity on each pre-flight.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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